Afghan tribal sabre. Tulwar or Shamshir?

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2007, 10:48 PM

This sabre is a talwar, and the blade is clearly not a shamshir blade, which had no ricasso. This blade form has the very pronounced ricasso, and almost recessed blade edge. It is puzzling in determining exactly what regions or who favored these open hilt talwars, or for that matter the exact period in which they were used. This example appears latter 19th c. and the form is known to have been used from Sind as far as Lahore to the east.

There does not really seem to be anything about this tulwar that would suggest Afghan associations, which is not to say it could never have gotten that far north. I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape.
The rivet through the chowk does seem to have some association to presumed far north talwars when considering concurrent discussions on talwars presently running, but that entirely speculative.

Regarding the 'onion' motif on the blade, where has this been seen before? I cannot recall seeing this, and I am wondering if it actually represents an onion. The concentric circle motif on the hilt seems solar oriented, but could be floral considering the leaves in the pommel dish. Any thoughts on what flowers or leaves may be represented?

spiral · 20th September 2007, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape.

Actualy I was thinking of the sales photos on ebay Jim that showed this chape as a typical mix of brass & copper work full of course floral motifs, fairly Identical to many older Khyber scabberd chapes Ive owned or seen.

Spiral

Montino Bourbon · 20th September 2007, 02:44 AM

I think it's a very fine sword; nice profile, looks good, unusual hilt, feels good in the hand, nice scabbard; what's not to like?

As Spock said in "Amok time', one of the seminal 'Star Trek' episodes...

"Sometimes 'having' is not as good as 'wanting'",

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2007, 04:45 AM

Hi Spiral,
I hadnt seen the ebay photos,and wasnt aware of the ornate work on the Khyber knives, thank you for adding the info on that

This really is a good example of the open hilt talwar and I always am intrigued by markings and motif, trying to look into symbolism possibilities. It is easy to see the attraction to the scabbard, which is indeed interesting with that nice chape....to find a talwar with its original scabbard is an achievement in itself!!

Nicely done Tim!

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 20th September 2007, 08:15 AM

Thanks for the kind words it really helps and all the back ground info. I now understand the repeated resharped or ground edge profile.

When it arrived I cut open the parcel and held it with a sense triumph. Then straight to where I clean them. Cleaning with my heart pounding and enthusiasm enough to perspire

, behold!! DOUBT

I am sure I am not alone here. Like they say the bigger they come the harder they fall.
So thanks, I will keep it for the time being then I might waft it under a certain collectors nose. I could put a silver rivet in if you think it would help?

Tim Simmons · 20th September 2007, 09:47 AM

See how similar the designs are to prayer rugs and other textiles, the other side of the chape being very similar to eye dazzle patterns on Kilim and rugs. The close up seen the other way is the spitting image of the aforementioned. I find this quite interesting.

spiral · 20th September 2007, 04:10 PM

Thanks Tim, I realy like that chape, Harder to find one more tribaly ethnographic & charachterfull I think.

The original rivet would have been steel, but if its not loose or going to war, perhaps it doesnt need a refurbishment?

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2007, 04:29 PM

Hi Tim,
Thank you for letting us share this acquisition with you. It really is good to sort of 'ride along' as the item arrives and experience the thoughts and sensations of excitement/doubt etc. as you view the actual item. I think this gives readers who may be somewhat new to collecting excellent perspective on what to expect when acquiring weapons purchased without actually handling them in person.

Now that I see the repousse type decoration on the chape, these remind me more of Hyderabad work on some of the weapons such as the 'karabela' hilt shape saifs that are shown in Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (I do not recall the page but the swords have several hilt forms and typically have the same repousse on the silver hilt and scabbard throat/mounts en suite.

It is a very good call to note the decorative motif's similarity to that seen on textiles and rugs. Various resources dealing with material culture in particular regions and cultures, such as the rugs and textiles are excellent sources for clues on motif. Just as we have noted the importance often found in nusimatic material to help sometimes with markings on blades, there are also clues found in architectural material, such as is the case in hilt structure on many Indian weapons.

Best regards,
Jim

20th September 2007, 02:44 AM	#3
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Don't be disappointed... I think it's a very fine sword; nice profile, looks good, unusual hilt, feels good in the hand, nice scabbard; what's not to like? As Spock said in "Amok time', one of the seminal 'Star Trek' episodes... "Sometimes 'having' is not as good as 'wanting'",

20th September 2007, 09:47 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,936	Chape close up See how similar the designs are to prayer rugs and other textiles, the other side of the chape being very similar to eye dazzle patterns on Kilim and rugs. The close up seen the other way is the spitting image of the aforementioned. I find this quite interesting.

19th September 2007, 10:48 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,736	This sabre is a talwar, and the blade is clearly not a shamshir blade, which had no ricasso. This blade form has the very pronounced ricasso, and almost recessed blade edge. It is puzzling in determining exactly what regions or who favored these open hilt talwars, or for that matter the exact period in which they were used. This example appears latter 19th c. and the form is known to have been used from Sind as far as Lahore to the east. There does not really seem to be anything about this tulwar that would suggest Afghan associations, which is not to say it could never have gotten that far north. I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape. The rivet through the chowk does seem to have some association to presumed far north talwars when considering concurrent discussions on talwars presently running, but that entirely speculative. Regarding the 'onion' motif on the blade, where has this been seen before? I cannot recall seeing this, and I am wondering if it actually represents an onion. The concentric circle motif on the hilt seems solar oriented, but could be floral considering the leaves in the pommel dish. Any thoughts on what flowers or leaves may be represented?

20th September 2007, 04:45 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,736	Hi Spiral, I hadnt seen the ebay photos,and wasnt aware of the ornate work on the Khyber knives, thank you for adding the info on that This really is a good example of the open hilt talwar and I always am intrigued by markings and motif, trying to look into symbolism possibilities. It is easy to see the attraction to the scabbard, which is indeed interesting with that nice chape....to find a talwar with its original scabbard is an achievement in itself!! Nicely done Tim! Best regards, Jim

20th September 2007, 08:15 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,936	Thanks for the kind words it really helps and all the back ground info. I now understand the repeated resharped or ground edge profile. When it arrived I cut open the parcel and held it with a sense triumph. Then straight to where I clean them. Cleaning with my heart pounding and enthusiasm enough to perspire , behold!! DOUBT I am sure I am not alone here. Like they say the bigger they come the harder they fall. So thanks, I will keep it for the time being then I might waft it under a certain collectors nose. I could put a silver rivet in if you think it would help?

20th September 2007, 04:10 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Tim, I realy like that chape, Harder to find one more tribaly ethnographic & charachterfull I think. The original rivet would have been steel, but if its not loose or going to war, perhaps it doesnt need a refurbishment? Spiral

20th September 2007, 04:29 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,736	Hi Tim, Thank you for letting us share this acquisition with you. It really is good to sort of 'ride along' as the item arrives and experience the thoughts and sensations of excitement/doubt etc. as you view the actual item. I think this gives readers who may be somewhat new to collecting excellent perspective on what to expect when acquiring weapons purchased without actually handling them in person. Now that I see the repousse type decoration on the chape, these remind me more of Hyderabad work on some of the weapons such as the 'karabela' hilt shape saifs that are shown in Elgood's "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (I do not recall the page but the swords have several hilt forms and typically have the same repousse on the silver hilt and scabbard throat/mounts en suite. It is a very good call to note the decorative motif's similarity to that seen on textiles and rugs. Various resources dealing with material culture in particular regions and cultures, such as the rugs and textiles are excellent sources for clues on motif. Just as we have noted the importance often found in nusimatic material to help sometimes with markings on blades, there are also clues found in architectural material, such as is the case in hilt structure on many Indian weapons. Best regards, Jim