Afghan tribal sabre. Tulwar or Shamshir?

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 07:03 PM

Well thank you Rand. I know nothing about this area except this blade is still able to nip my finger every time I examine it. I am starting to feel a little better.

Tim Simmons · 19th September 2007, 07:19 PM

So all the parts may be original? just old, adjusted and heavy wear? There is no inlay in the cartouche not to say there never was. It is the right scabbard for the sword no doubt about the fit. I am warming up.

spiral · 19th September 2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

So all the parts may be original? just old, adjusted and heavy wear? There is no inlay in the cartouche not to say there never was. It is the right scabbard for the sword no doubt about the fit. I am warming up.

Tim can you do close up of chape? as I recal it was typical Afghan tribal work, I didnt keep the link, I think you paid a fair price, {I was after a bargain.} In my limited expierience lots of Afghan weapons went through newer scabbards etc, whenever neccasary.

I know an impecibly provinanced private collection of Afghan pieces all pre. or at least 1920 in which I estimate at least 70% of them could easily have replaced handels or scabards. But the replacment are genuine ,ethnographic & from thier working history as tribal & Afghan army weapons. The fit & work & were used in situ. I own 3 of them myself.

Spiral

Ferguson · 19th September 2007, 09:32 PM

I think it's beautiful. Glad you're warming up to it.

Beer + Ebay =

Been there done that.

Steve

spiral · 19th September 2007, 09:50 PM

I would also add Ive seen Afghan tribal cartouches that are purely ingraved without any infill, just chiseled out, twice they have been on British/Indian/Nepali army style kukris that were most likely captured battle spoils.

Its all good history in my book.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2007, 09:48 PM

This sabre is a talwar, and the blade is clearly not a shamshir blade, which had no ricasso. This blade form has the very pronounced ricasso, and almost recessed blade edge. It is puzzling in determining exactly what regions or who favored these open hilt talwars, or for that matter the exact period in which they were used. This example appears latter 19th c. and the form is known to have been used from Sind as far as Lahore to the east.

There does not really seem to be anything about this tulwar that would suggest Afghan associations, which is not to say it could never have gotten that far north. I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape.
The rivet through the chowk does seem to have some association to presumed far north talwars when considering concurrent discussions on talwars presently running, but that entirely speculative.

Regarding the 'onion' motif on the blade, where has this been seen before? I cannot recall seeing this, and I am wondering if it actually represents an onion. The concentric circle motif on the hilt seems solar oriented, but could be floral considering the leaves in the pommel dish. Any thoughts on what flowers or leaves may be represented?

spiral · 20th September 2007, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape.

Actualy I was thinking of the sales photos on ebay Jim that showed this chape as a typical mix of brass & copper work full of course floral motifs, fairly Identical to many older Khyber scabberd chapes Ive owned or seen.

Spiral

Montino Bourbon · 20th September 2007, 01:44 AM

I think it's a very fine sword; nice profile, looks good, unusual hilt, feels good in the hand, nice scabbard; what's not to like?

As Spock said in "Amok time', one of the seminal 'Star Trek' episodes...

"Sometimes 'having' is not as good as 'wanting'",

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2007, 03:45 AM

Hi Spiral,
I hadnt seen the ebay photos,and wasnt aware of the ornate work on the Khyber knives, thank you for adding the info on that

This really is a good example of the open hilt talwar and I always am intrigued by markings and motif, trying to look into symbolism possibilities. It is easy to see the attraction to the scabbard, which is indeed interesting with that nice chape....to find a talwar with its original scabbard is an achievement in itself!!

Nicely done Tim!

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 20th September 2007, 07:15 AM

Thanks for the kind words it really helps and all the back ground info. I now understand the repeated resharped or ground edge profile.

When it arrived I cut open the parcel and held it with a sense triumph. Then straight to where I clean them. Cleaning with my heart pounding and enthusiasm enough to perspire

, behold!! DOUBT

I am sure I am not alone here. Like they say the bigger they come the harder they fall.
So thanks, I will keep it for the time being then I might waft it under a certain collectors nose. I could put a silver rivet in if you think it would help?

20th September 2007, 01:44 AM	#8
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Don't be disappointed... I think it's a very fine sword; nice profile, looks good, unusual hilt, feels good in the hand, nice scabbard; what's not to like? As Spock said in "Amok time', one of the seminal 'Star Trek' episodes... "Sometimes 'having' is not as good as 'wanting'",

19th September 2007, 07:03 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	Well thank you Rand. I know nothing about this area except this blade is still able to nip my finger every time I examine it. I am starting to feel a little better.

19th September 2007, 07:19 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	So all the parts may be original? just old, adjusted and heavy wear? There is no inlay in the cartouche not to say there never was. It is the right scabbard for the sword no doubt about the fit. I am warming up.

19th September 2007, 09:32 PM	#4
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	I think it's beautiful. Glad you're warming up to it. Beer + Ebay = Been there done that. Steve

19th September 2007, 09:50 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I would also add Ive seen Afghan tribal cartouches that are purely ingraved without any infill, just chiseled out, twice they have been on British/Indian/Nepali army style kukris that were most likely captured battle spoils. Its all good history in my book. Spiral

19th September 2007, 09:48 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	This sabre is a talwar, and the blade is clearly not a shamshir blade, which had no ricasso. This blade form has the very pronounced ricasso, and almost recessed blade edge. It is puzzling in determining exactly what regions or who favored these open hilt talwars, or for that matter the exact period in which they were used. This example appears latter 19th c. and the form is known to have been used from Sind as far as Lahore to the east. There does not really seem to be anything about this tulwar that would suggest Afghan associations, which is not to say it could never have gotten that far north. I am not inclined to think the scabbard chape is Afghan, but I know what Spiral is thinking of (see 'Bad news talwar', March, 2007 in which a talwar is mounted in an Afghan scabbard identified by the long, fluted chape). The chape on this while profusely ornate, does not have the pierced mounts and long fluted chape. The rivet through the chowk does seem to have some association to presumed far north talwars when considering concurrent discussions on talwars presently running, but that entirely speculative. Regarding the 'onion' motif on the blade, where has this been seen before? I cannot recall seeing this, and I am wondering if it actually represents an onion. The concentric circle motif on the hilt seems solar oriented, but could be floral considering the leaves in the pommel dish. Any thoughts on what flowers or leaves may be represented?

20th September 2007, 03:45 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Hi Spiral, I hadnt seen the ebay photos,and wasnt aware of the ornate work on the Khyber knives, thank you for adding the info on that This really is a good example of the open hilt talwar and I always am intrigued by markings and motif, trying to look into symbolism possibilities. It is easy to see the attraction to the scabbard, which is indeed interesting with that nice chape....to find a talwar with its original scabbard is an achievement in itself!! Nicely done Tim! Best regards, Jim

20th September 2007, 07:15 AM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	Thanks for the kind words it really helps and all the back ground info. I now understand the repeated resharped or ground edge profile. When it arrived I cut open the parcel and held it with a sense triumph. Then straight to where I clean them. Cleaning with my heart pounding and enthusiasm enough to perspire , behold!! DOUBT I am sure I am not alone here. Like they say the bigger they come the harder they fall. So thanks, I will keep it for the time being then I might waft it under a certain collectors nose. I could put a silver rivet in if you think it would help?