Images of the Orient-Weapons included-XVI century

Jens Nordlunde · 18th September 2007, 09:42 PM

Fernando, you are a step ahead of many of us searching pictures and descriptions like this, thank you very much for showing them.

As Rand suggests a blog or maybe CD or DVD, whatever you prefer, if translations are possible it would help a lot, if not the pictures are fine.

fernando · 18th September 2007, 11:15 PM

Hi Rand
Me, creating a blog ? I don't know

.
My first impulse was to check whether this material is interesting for some of the forum members. That's the easy part

.
I never thaught of being a blogger

Hi Jens
I am glad you find this usefull.
I will surely think of something within my computer skills

. Maybe the CD solution. No problem with the images. Translations are a bit more problematic, at first sight; the original legends are in XVI century Portuguese, the names of peoples races are hard to modernize and revert into english. I have to see if i can bring the whole bunch up to something decently understandable.
I will be back and tell what will happen.
The additional texts by the various period authors relative to the races in the images, amount to thousands of words. I would only sinthetize some of them in case somebody would require for a particular case/s, after observing all the images.
Let just see if there is someone else interested.
Kind regards
fernando

fernando · 19th September 2007, 02:05 PM

Hi Jens
you have a PM from me.
Thanks
fernando

Jens Nordlunde · 19th September 2007, 03:56 PM

Hi Fernando,
I have read your PM, and sent you a mail - thank you very much.
All the best
Jens

Philip · 19th September 2007, 11:26 PM

Hi, Fernando
What a treasure-trove of graphic info! If you publish a translated version on CD, as someone suggests, I'll be in line to buy a copy.

I'm wondering if the author of this work intended this to be used as an intelligence source for subsequent Portuguese conquests in Africa and Asia.

Of course, we need to take artistic license into account when looking at some of the artwork. Note the poor war-elephant in one of the pictures, burdened with castellated howdah packed with what appears to be several squads of soldiers! Reminds me of my college days, trying to see how many drunk guys you can jam into and on a VW beetle and still be able to stay on the road under its own power.

fernando · 20th September 2007, 12:34 AM

Hi Philip
The book had 1500 copies printed, and is actualy sold out.
I am emailing you the legends translation right now.
The CD will follow by mail.
The war elephant will take a bit longer, due to its load

.
I will see if the support texts from the period include arms and armoury quotations
Regards
fernando

rand · 25th September 2007, 06:54 AM

Fernando,

It seems the influence of Europe, in this case Portugal is not illustrated enough currently to makes its effect fully understood. Am sure there are records of visits to Islamic countries and what was sold or given to the rulers there of also.

Just saw one reference of Portugal envoys,

"The Safavid period: Shah Esma@¿^l I (q.v.) showed an interest in the purchase of firearms as early as 907/1502, soon after his enthronement (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 9-10). Yet the Safavid army's failure to use artillery in the battle of Ùa@ldera@n (q.v.) in 920/1514 was largely responsible for its defeat. Shah Esma@¿^l reacted swiftly to remedy this and immediately following the battle appointed his wak^l, Solta@n-H®osayn, as tofang±^-ba@æ^, commander of the musketeers, putting him in charge of forming of a corps of tofang±^s (Bacque‚-Grammont, p. 165; Aubin, p. 118). The results were soon noticeable. The Portuguese envoys visiting Ka@æa@n in 1515-16 observed "forty musketeers bearing muskets of metal" among the welcoming party (Smith, p. 44). By 1517, Esma@¿^l's army is said to have included 8,000 musketeers, and Venetian reports from 1521 and 1522 speak of 12,000 and 15,000 to 20,000 arquebusiers (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 377, 405-6, 533, 545). No figures are available for Shah T®ahma@sb I's reign, yet it is clear that the musketeer corps continued to be active, frequently taking part in campaigns and in the defense of fortresses (¿AÚlama@ra@-ye ˆa@h T®ahma@sb, pp. 64, 78, 123, 157, 181, 193, 204-5, 272, 280, 297, 314, 329, 332, 335, 341, 357, 369, 376-77). By the mid-17th century, observers put the number of musketeers in the Safavid army at 8,000 to 10,000 (Tavernier, I, p. 659) to 12,000 men (Chardin, V, p. 305; Tavernier noted that in times of need, their number could rise to 50,000)."

(an article by Rudi Matthee about the history of firearms in Iran)

rand

19th September 2007, 11:26 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	put me on the list.... Hi, Fernando What a treasure-trove of graphic info! If you publish a translated version on CD, as someone suggests, I'll be in line to buy a copy. I'm wondering if the author of this work intended this to be used as an intelligence source for subsequent Portuguese conquests in Africa and Asia. Of course, we need to take artistic license into account when looking at some of the artwork. Note the poor war-elephant in one of the pictures, burdened with castellated howdah packed with what appears to be several squads of soldiers! Reminds me of my college days, trying to see how many drunk guys you can jam into and on a VW beetle and still be able to stay on the road under its own power.

25th September 2007, 06:54 AM	#7
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	European Influences Fernando, It seems the influence of Europe, in this case Portugal is not illustrated enough currently to makes its effect fully understood. Am sure there are records of visits to Islamic countries and what was sold or given to the rulers there of also. Just saw one reference of Portugal envoys, "The Safavid period: Shah Esma@¿^l I (q.v.) showed an interest in the purchase of firearms as early as 907/1502, soon after his enthronement (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 9-10). Yet the Safavid army's failure to use artillery in the battle of Ùa@ldera@n (q.v.) in 920/1514 was largely responsible for its defeat. Shah Esma@¿^l reacted swiftly to remedy this and immediately following the battle appointed his wak^l, Solta@n-H®osayn, as tofang±^-ba@æ^, commander of the musketeers, putting him in charge of forming of a corps of tofang±^s (Bacque‚-Grammont, p. 165; Aubin, p. 118). The results were soon noticeable. The Portuguese envoys visiting Ka@æa@n in 1515-16 observed "forty musketeers bearing muskets of metal" among the welcoming party (Smith, p. 44). By 1517, Esma@¿^l's army is said to have included 8,000 musketeers, and Venetian reports from 1521 and 1522 speak of 12,000 and 15,000 to 20,000 arquebusiers (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 377, 405-6, 533, 545). No figures are available for Shah T®ahma@sb I's reign, yet it is clear that the musketeer corps continued to be active, frequently taking part in campaigns and in the defense of fortresses (¿AÚlama@ra@-ye ˆa@h T®ahma@sb, pp. 64, 78, 123, 157, 181, 193, 204-5, 272, 280, 297, 314, 329, 332, 335, 341, 357, 369, 376-77). By the mid-17th century, observers put the number of musketeers in the Safavid army at 8,000 to 10,000 (Tavernier, I, p. 659) to 12,000 men (Chardin, V, p. 305; Tavernier noted that in times of need, their number could rise to 50,000)." (an article by Rudi Matthee about the history of firearms in Iran) rand

18th September 2007, 09:42 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Fernando, you are a step ahead of many of us searching pictures and descriptions like this, thank you very much for showing them. As Rand suggests a blog or maybe CD or DVD, whatever you prefer, if translations are possible it would help a lot, if not the pictures are fine.

18th September 2007, 11:15 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Rand Me, creating a blog ? I don't know . My first impulse was to check whether this material is interesting for some of the forum members. That's the easy part . I never thaught of being a blogger Hi Jens I am glad you find this usefull. I will surely think of something within my computer skills . Maybe the CD solution. No problem with the images. Translations are a bit more problematic, at first sight; the original legends are in XVI century Portuguese, the names of peoples races are hard to modernize and revert into english. I have to see if i can bring the whole bunch up to something decently understandable. I will be back and tell what will happen. The additional texts by the various period authors relative to the races in the images, amount to thousands of words. I would only sinthetize some of them in case somebody would require for a particular case/s, after observing all the images. Let just see if there is someone else interested. Kind regards fernando

19th September 2007, 02:05 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jens you have a PM from me. Thanks fernando

19th September 2007, 03:56 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando, I have read your PM, and sent you a mail - thank you very much. All the best Jens

20th September 2007, 12:34 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Philip The book had 1500 copies printed, and is actualy sold out. I am emailing you the legends translation right now. The CD will follow by mail. The war elephant will take a bit longer, due to its load . I will see if the support texts from the period include arms and armoury quotations Regards fernando