A Rajput with his sword

Tim Simmons · 18th September 2007, 07:20 PM

Could these marks refer to Sind or other areas now Pakistan? not Arab. The symbol is on the Pakistan flag.

Rick · 18th September 2007, 07:57 PM

Galvano,
Could you try another close up of the stamp on the blade ?
Wipe the oil away first .
Thanks,

That is a fine old warrior; I wonder if it's Afghan .

Jens Nordlunde · 18th September 2007, 10:45 PM

Good guess Rick. I wonder what the whole hilt looks like!

Rick · 19th September 2007, 05:37 AM

Hi Jens,
You can see it entire in post #6 .

Circles with dots on the rivet washers and the simple line and dot decoration of the hilt hint of it (my opinion); the blade stamp is possibly that of Mazar I Sharif ?
Or do I just imagine a slight resemblance to that mark everywhere I look ?

Then there's the terminal on the knucklebow which resembles the down turned quillon on a pulouar .

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2007, 07:26 PM

OK Rick! Its 'Great Game'-o-phobia!!

You're seeing our much discussed Afghan armoury stamp again! Actually though, I think that stamp occurred in a different position on the blades, at least on those Afghan military sabres. It seems it was the cartouche with the Mosque with what appear to be cannons on either side if I recall, and was stamped in the ricasso block nearest the blade edge. I dont think this is the stamp, but as you note, we cant really see it, and I dont recall if that stamp was found on any other weapons or blade locations.

I do agree that this may well be a talwar from those northern regions near Afghanistan, though the actual hilt form favors those typically considered of Rajasthan manufacture. If you recall the thread from last March, by Pukka Bundook ("Bad News Tulwar") where the pretty much trashed blade was beautifully restored by Bundook, and the hilt (though of variant form) had a rivet which was covered by a floral device very similar to this, presuming this to be the original affectation.

That particular talwar with similar placed device seems somewhat associated with this example with the dotted line decor. The Pukka Bundook example was apparantly furbished at some point near Afghan regions, evidenced by the scabbard it was found in, which had the pierced mounts and long, fluted piece at the base, as found with Afghan paluoar scabbards. Perhaps a somewhat stretched association, but still suggesting far north regions.

The stylized semi circle with dot in the floral device on the chowk may suggest the crescent and star as noted, but more research on the symbolism. More typically found in Afghan regions is the full circle enclosing a dot.

Also interesting is the rather 'mechanical' looking lines with dots, which seem, to recall structured metal with rivets, such as in armour. It seems that the Pukka Bundook talwar had on the blade a flourish device inscribed at the beginning of the fuller and was outlined with dot type accent throughout the flourish which itself accented the fuller.This type inscribing was typical on European blades and was probably copied by the armourer, though very crudely from trade or captured examples. It does seem worthy of note in comparison with this unusual motif.

galvano · 19th September 2007, 07:55 PM

after cleaning ??

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2007, 09:54 PM

Thanks Galvano.
Do you by any chance have any thoughts on this very interesting tulwar?
Have you done any research on its possible origins?

spiral · 19th September 2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

OK Rick! Its 'Great Game'-o-phobia!!

You're seeing our much discussed Afghan armoury stamp again! Actually though, I think that stamp occurred in a different position on the blades, at least on those Afghan military sabres. It seems it was the cartouche with the Mosque with what appear to be cannons on either side if I recall, and was stamped in the ricasso block nearest the blade edge. I dont think this is the stamp, but as you note, we cant really see it, and I dont recall if that stamp was found on any other weapons or blade locations.

.

Heres a few more examples of the supposed Mazar I sharif marking from my personal collection, I know & can probably obtain numerous varitions of examples on re stamped English as well as Afghan blades blades up to the 1920s. {Which of course by then were set within a sun marking.

Interestingly although it does indeed show the blue mosque at Mazar al sharif it is also actualy the standard Royal Afghamn coat of arms as seen on all Afghan coins etc. minted at Kabul etc. at that time.

I wonder if ther is any evidence to point to the mazar armoury compared to it bieng just the Royal Afghan issue mark? without a particular armoury attachment?

Anyone any facts to share?

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2007, 12:24 AM

Very impressive grouping Spiral!!! Thanks for posting these.
It is really interesting to see a kukri with Afghan weapons! though I know the Afghan military followed British military fashion closely in the latter 19th c. and military issue kukris would seem in line. Was that the case?

Your point on the marking corresponding to those on coins of the period is spot on, this was how I originally confirmed the stamped marking on a c.1890's Afghan miliary sabre. Nusimatics can sometimes be very helpful in blade marking identification.

Best regards,
Jim

19th September 2007, 05:37 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Afghan Hi Jens, You can see it entire in post #6 . Circles with dots on the rivet washers and the simple line and dot decoration of the hilt hint of it (my opinion); the blade stamp is possibly that of Mazar I Sharif ? Or do I just imagine a slight resemblance to that mark everywhere I look ? Then there's the terminal on the knucklebow which resembles the down turned quillon on a pulouar . Last edited by Rick; 19th September 2007 at 05:46 AM. Reason: elaboration

19th September 2007, 07:26 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	OK Rick! Its 'Great Game'-o-phobia!! You're seeing our much discussed Afghan armoury stamp again! Actually though, I think that stamp occurred in a different position on the blades, at least on those Afghan military sabres. It seems it was the cartouche with the Mosque with what appear to be cannons on either side if I recall, and was stamped in the ricasso block nearest the blade edge. I dont think this is the stamp, but as you note, we cant really see it, and I dont recall if that stamp was found on any other weapons or blade locations. I do agree that this may well be a talwar from those northern regions near Afghanistan, though the actual hilt form favors those typically considered of Rajasthan manufacture. If you recall the thread from last March, by Pukka Bundook ("Bad News Tulwar") where the pretty much trashed blade was beautifully restored by Bundook, and the hilt (though of variant form) had a rivet which was covered by a floral device very similar to this, presuming this to be the original affectation. That particular talwar with similar placed device seems somewhat associated with this example with the dotted line decor. The Pukka Bundook example was apparantly furbished at some point near Afghan regions, evidenced by the scabbard it was found in, which had the pierced mounts and long, fluted piece at the base, as found with Afghan paluoar scabbards. Perhaps a somewhat stretched association, but still suggesting far north regions. The stylized semi circle with dot in the floral device on the chowk may suggest the crescent and star as noted, but more research on the symbolism. More typically found in Afghan regions is the full circle enclosing a dot. Also interesting is the rather 'mechanical' looking lines with dots, which seem, to recall structured metal with rivets, such as in armour. It seems that the Pukka Bundook talwar had on the blade a flourish device inscribed at the beginning of the fuller and was outlined with dot type accent throughout the flourish which itself accented the fuller.This type inscribing was typical on European blades and was probably copied by the armourer, though very crudely from trade or captured examples. It does seem worthy of note in comparison with this unusual motif. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th September 2007 at 07:40 PM.

18th September 2007, 07:20 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Could these marks refer to Sind or other areas now Pakistan? not Arab. The symbol is on the Pakistan flag.

18th September 2007, 07:57 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Galvano, Could you try another close up of the stamp on the blade ? Wipe the oil away first . Thanks, That is a fine old warrior; I wonder if it's Afghan .

18th September 2007, 10:45 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Good guess Rick. I wonder what the whole hilt looks like!

19th September 2007, 07:55 PM	#6
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	new bad photograph after cleaning ?? Attached Images

19th September 2007, 09:54 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Thanks Galvano. Do you by any chance have any thoughts on this very interesting tulwar? Have you done any research on its possible origins?

20th September 2007, 12:24 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Very impressive grouping Spiral!!! Thanks for posting these. It is really interesting to see a kukri with Afghan weapons! though I know the Afghan military followed British military fashion closely in the latter 19th c. and military issue kukris would seem in line. Was that the case? Your point on the marking corresponding to those on coins of the period is spot on, this was how I originally confirmed the stamped marking on a c.1890's Afghan miliary sabre. Nusimatics can sometimes be very helpful in blade marking identification. Best regards, Jim