A Rajput with his sword

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2007, 08:28 PM

OK I'll have a go at it

!
First of all, there is clearly a predominance of solar symbolism in the inside of the pommel dish. There is of course varying symbolism in India using this particular solar representation, and in the major Rajput lineages there are three basic lines; 1.) Suryavanshi...decended from the Hindu sun god Surya
2.) Chandravanshi..descent from Chandra, Hindu moon god.
3.) Agnivanshi...descent from Hindu god of fire.
* one of the pommel dish motifs seemed to suggest flames

The excellent examples of knuckleguarded talwars shown by Galvano and Dom both have the grip with central peaked shape, which I believe suggest Rajasthan with most examples of 19th century, though some references have indicated some earlier. The standard flueret shape langet on Galvanos seems less common on these as it seems the examples I have seen typically have the squared terminus langet as seen on Dom's. Interestingly the peaked grip and squared langet seem to usually be attributed to Udaipur (in Rajasthan).

Galvano, can you show a closeup of the brass disc on the chowk on yours?

The interesting pierced disc on the example shown by Course Eight, and the same piercing on the beautifully decorated example of Tabarzin, reminds me very much of such piercings in some regulation military swords such as the famed heavy cavalry 'disc hilt' sword of 1796 British and earlier Austrian patterns. The same effect was used later in variation on many regulation hilts. Presumably, as with fullering on blades, the intent was the lighten the sword. The suggestion of the lotus pod suggested here applied in Indian motif seems quite plausible, but would seem out of context in the decorated example of Tabarzin.

These are my thoughts and observations so far on these and I would welcome hearing those of others.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2007, 08:05 AM

Some notes concerning the Sikh photos posted by Lew. That extremely tall and unusual turban with the crescents etc. also carries the circular, sharp bladed discs termed 'quoit' or 'chakram'. These were thrown at the enemy either whirled around forefinger and released or held between thumb and forefinger and thrown underarm.
These seem primarily associated with the Sikh Akali sect.
It would be interesting to know if there were certain peculiarities or markings/motif key to the Sikhs of this sect on thier talwars, or other weapons.

Jens Nordlunde · 18th September 2007, 03:53 PM

Jeff,
The Raja from Rajasthan you show in post #4 could very well be from Bundi, as they seemed to have fancied this kind of ’lower’ hairstyle. Maybe it is even Maharao Raja Raghbir Singh as he and his father seem to have been especially fond of this style. If it is, the picture is likely to have been taken in the first quarter of 20th century.

Bill,
The tulwar discs you show in post #11 are interesting, but what does the hilt on the one to the right look like? The one with the steel 'pearls'.

Jim,
Here is another one, it has been shown before, but not in this connection.

galvano · 18th September 2007, 06:11 PM

Hello Jim
other photographs.
and the Arab mark on the blade
galvano

Tim Simmons · 18th September 2007, 06:20 PM

Could these marks refer to Sind or other areas now Pakistan? not Arab. The symbol is on the Pakistan flag.

Rick · 18th September 2007, 06:57 PM

Galvano,
Could you try another close up of the stamp on the blade ?
Wipe the oil away first .
Thanks,

That is a fine old warrior; I wonder if it's Afghan .

Jens Nordlunde · 18th September 2007, 09:45 PM

Good guess Rick. I wonder what the whole hilt looks like!

18th September 2007, 03:53 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jeff, The Raja from Rajasthan you show in post #4 could very well be from Bundi, as they seemed to have fancied this kind of ’lower’ hairstyle. Maybe it is even Maharao Raja Raghbir Singh as he and his father seem to have been especially fond of this style. If it is, the picture is likely to have been taken in the first quarter of 20th century. Bill, The tulwar discs you show in post #11 are interesting, but what does the hilt on the one to the right look like? The one with the steel 'pearls'. Jim, Here is another one, it has been shown before, but not in this connection. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 18th September 2007 at 05:03 PM.

17th September 2007, 08:28 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	OK I'll have a go at it ! First of all, there is clearly a predominance of solar symbolism in the inside of the pommel dish. There is of course varying symbolism in India using this particular solar representation, and in the major Rajput lineages there are three basic lines; 1.) Suryavanshi...decended from the Hindu sun god Surya 2.) Chandravanshi..descent from Chandra, Hindu moon god. 3.) Agnivanshi...descent from Hindu god of fire. * one of the pommel dish motifs seemed to suggest flames The excellent examples of knuckleguarded talwars shown by Galvano and Dom both have the grip with central peaked shape, which I believe suggest Rajasthan with most examples of 19th century, though some references have indicated some earlier. The standard flueret shape langet on Galvanos seems less common on these as it seems the examples I have seen typically have the squared terminus langet as seen on Dom's. Interestingly the peaked grip and squared langet seem to usually be attributed to Udaipur (in Rajasthan). Galvano, can you show a closeup of the brass disc on the chowk on yours? The interesting pierced disc on the example shown by Course Eight, and the same piercing on the beautifully decorated example of Tabarzin, reminds me very much of such piercings in some regulation military swords such as the famed heavy cavalry 'disc hilt' sword of 1796 British and earlier Austrian patterns. The same effect was used later in variation on many regulation hilts. Presumably, as with fullering on blades, the intent was the lighten the sword. The suggestion of the lotus pod suggested here applied in Indian motif seems quite plausible, but would seem out of context in the decorated example of Tabarzin. These are my thoughts and observations so far on these and I would welcome hearing those of others. All best regards, Jim

18th September 2007, 08:05 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Some notes concerning the Sikh photos posted by Lew. That extremely tall and unusual turban with the crescents etc. also carries the circular, sharp bladed discs termed 'quoit' or 'chakram'. These were thrown at the enemy either whirled around forefinger and released or held between thumb and forefinger and thrown underarm. These seem primarily associated with the Sikh Akali sect. It would be interesting to know if there were certain peculiarities or markings/motif key to the Sikhs of this sect on thier talwars, or other weapons.

18th September 2007, 06:11 PM	#4
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	guard Hello Jim other photographs. and the Arab mark on the blade galvano Attached Images

18th September 2007, 06:20 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	Could these marks refer to Sind or other areas now Pakistan? not Arab. The symbol is on the Pakistan flag.

18th September 2007, 06:57 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Galvano, Could you try another close up of the stamp on the blade ? Wipe the oil away first . Thanks, That is a fine old warrior; I wonder if it's Afghan .

18th September 2007, 09:45 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Good guess Rick. I wonder what the whole hilt looks like!