Stamp on a Turkish muzzle loader

archer · 12th September 2007, 08:48 PM

Can anyone read this Turkish or Arabic stamping? Thank you, for looking.

Steve

Dom · 12th September 2007, 11:00 PM

Good Day
the alphabet is arabic

but apparently, according with my favorite translator

my spouse

no meaning in arabic language

may be, should be in turkish

rgds

à +

Dom

rand · 13th September 2007, 02:54 AM

Hey Archer,

Nice looking firearm you have, pattern welded barrel, gold inlaid designs and a makers stamp on the barrel.

Not sure what technique of inlay was used for applying the goldwork. In general the Turkish technique was a triangular punch done in series creating a line that was inlaid with gold.

The Persian tended to use either a dot punch not overlaying the punch marks but also making a line where gold was inlaid. They also used a channel cut and inlay.

Both used a series of groove grooves cut where the body of a larger design was with a line defining the border.

Turkish designs tend to be more symetrical all the time.

My guess from looking at this photo is that your firearm has a Persian made barrel and I suspect the armours mark to be Farsi.

What is the shape of the stock?

rand

archer · 13th September 2007, 04:58 AM

I bought it in 1968 in Istanbul in the covered bazar thinking it was a jaejar from Germany; but, have now come to understand it could well be Turkish. The inset of gold was done in an undercut channel, and looks like connected dots.

The most unique feature is its hidden peep sight in the tang. Theres another and different cartouche on the lock plate It's hard to photograph and I even tried a rubbing couldn't get it clear enough. Thank you for your help.

Steve

rand · 13th September 2007, 05:53 AM

Hey Archer,

Interesting firearm you have. Would keep an open mind to this firearm being either Turkish of Persian. Have had a late 18th C. Turkish miquelet with a very similar rear sight, the one on my gun certainly could have been added during the 19th century.

It interesting that the lock has the makers stamp also. Is it the same mark as on the barrel? You rifle shows strong European influemce with the type of stock it has. A study of the lock may give you valuable clues as to when this gun was made. Looks to be a well made firearm, a three pin percussion lock, the shape of the stock may help date this weapon also. My gut feeling is between 1840-1880 time period, would certainly be possible to be a little earlier of later. Sort of based my assumption by the shape of the hammer, the hammer arm being squarish on its backside and the European style stock.

Will be inetresting to hear more opinions on it....

rand

rand · 13th September 2007, 05:58 AM

Hey Archer,

This is an example of a similar Persian barrel makers mark, this one translates to,"Amal-e Kuchak Ali bar Tofangiran"

The work of Kuchak Ali for the musketeers/rifleholders

Is written in Farsi....

rand

archer · 14th September 2007, 07:32 PM

Rand, this doesn't hold a candle to your museum piece, obliviously made for royalty.
This lock is typical of the era, it shows abuse and an excellent sear repair. unlike most most exposed metalwork of the era the thimble and trigger guard are not embellished the screws are all cut square opposed to V cuts of English guns.

I've included a shot of a German jaeger comparison. This gun is stout and shoulders very steady, it's almost as though the inlays covering up it's origin.
Oh, other than seeking out a turkish speaking person who reads arabic, how can I solve the mystery as your trying to do?

Steve

rand · 14th September 2007, 07:50 PM

Hello Archer,

Found it very interesting about the square and "V" cuts on the screws. What time period do you date your rifle to?

Had the armours mark on my barrel translated by Manouchehr on the Swordd Forum in the middle Eastern arms section. That forum is swords only so just post the armors mark and ask for a translation, if its Farsi you will get a translation for it.

http://www.swordforum.com/
above link is for sword forum

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=81698
Aove link is thread showing translations

rand

archer · 14th September 2007, 10:26 PM

Thanks Rand, I was pondering your question, when I spotted a proof mark peeping out almost hidden by the stock. I would say age mid 1800s. Then the lights came on briefly. All the British guns I've owned or handled are dripping with proof marks on all major parts. I have to assume German and other European guns would be the same. Thanks for the links, I'll look into them.

Steve

ham · 14th September 2007, 10:39 PM

Archer,

The mark on your barrel reads, IMTIHAN.
It means TESTED or PROVED

Ham

rand · 14th September 2007, 11:27 PM

Hey Ham,

Can you tell me if the proof mark is in Arabic, Turkish or Farsi?

Thanks,

rand

archer · 15th September 2007, 12:02 AM

Thanks Rand, I was pondering your question, when I spotted a proof mark peeping out almost hidden by the stock. I would say age mid 1800s. Then the lights came on briefly. All the British guns I've owned or handled are dripping with proof marks on all major parts. I have to assume German and other European guns would be the same. Thanks for the links, I'll look into them.

Steve

Thanks, Ham I thought it might be a date of manufacture. I had a glitch and double posted.

Steve

12th September 2007, 08:48 PM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Stamp on a Turkish muzzle loader Can anyone read this Turkish or Arabic stamping? Thank you, for looking. Steve Attached Images

13th September 2007, 02:54 AM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Firearm Hey Archer, Nice looking firearm you have, pattern welded barrel, gold inlaid designs and a makers stamp on the barrel. Not sure what technique of inlay was used for applying the goldwork. In general the Turkish technique was a triangular punch done in series creating a line that was inlaid with gold. The Persian tended to use either a dot punch not overlaying the punch marks but also making a line where gold was inlaid. They also used a channel cut and inlay. Both used a series of groove grooves cut where the body of a larger design was with a line defining the border. Turkish designs tend to be more symetrical all the time. My guess from looking at this photo is that your firearm has a Persian made barrel and I suspect the armours mark to be Farsi. What is the shape of the stock? rand

13th September 2007, 04:58 AM	#4
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	additional photos I bought it in 1968 in Istanbul in the covered bazar thinking it was a jaejar from Germany; but, have now come to understand it could well be Turkish. The inset of gold was done in an undercut channel, and looks like connected dots. The most unique feature is its hidden peep sight in the tang. Theres another and different cartouche on the lock plate It's hard to photograph and I even tried a rubbing couldn't get it clear enough. Thank you for your help. Steve Attached Images

13th September 2007, 05:53 AM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Interesting Firearm Hey Archer, Interesting firearm you have. Would keep an open mind to this firearm being either Turkish of Persian. Have had a late 18th C. Turkish miquelet with a very similar rear sight, the one on my gun certainly could have been added during the 19th century. It interesting that the lock has the makers stamp also. Is it the same mark as on the barrel? You rifle shows strong European influemce with the type of stock it has. A study of the lock may give you valuable clues as to when this gun was made. Looks to be a well made firearm, a three pin percussion lock, the shape of the stock may help date this weapon also. My gut feeling is between 1840-1880 time period, would certainly be possible to be a little earlier of later. Sort of based my assumption by the shape of the hammer, the hammer arm being squarish on its backside and the European style stock. Will be inetresting to hear more opinions on it.... rand

13th September 2007, 05:58 AM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Example of Persian barrel makers mark.... Hey Archer, This is an example of a similar Persian barrel makers mark, this one translates to,"Amal-e Kuchak Ali bar Tofangiran" The work of Kuchak Ali for the musketeers/rifleholders Is written in Farsi.... rand Attached Images

12th September 2007, 11:00 PM	#2
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Good Day the alphabet is arabic but apparently, according with my favorite translator my spouse no meaning in arabic language may be, should be in turkish rgds à + Dom

14th September 2007, 07:32 PM	#7
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	followup on questions Rand, this doesn't hold a candle to your museum piece, obliviously made for royalty. This lock is typical of the era, it shows abuse and an excellent sear repair. unlike most most exposed metalwork of the era the thimble and trigger guard are not embellished the screws are all cut square opposed to V cuts of English guns. I've included a shot of a German jaeger comparison. This gun is stout and shoulders very steady, it's almost as though the inlays covering up it's origin. Oh, other than seeking out a turkish speaking person who reads arabic, how can I solve the mystery as your trying to do? Steve Attached Images

14th September 2007, 07:50 PM	#8
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Percussion rifle Hello Archer, Found it very interesting about the square and "V" cuts on the screws. What time period do you date your rifle to? Had the armours mark on my barrel translated by Manouchehr on the Swordd Forum in the middle Eastern arms section. That forum is swords only so just post the armors mark and ask for a translation, if its Farsi you will get a translation for it. http://www.swordforum.com/ above link is for sword forum http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=81698 Aove link is thread showing translations rand

14th September 2007, 10:26 PM	#9
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	More Info Thanks Rand, I was pondering your question, when I spotted a proof mark peeping out almost hidden by the stock. I would say age mid 1800s. Then the lights came on briefly. All the British guns I've owned or handled are dripping with proof marks on all major parts. I have to assume German and other European guns would be the same. Thanks for the links, I'll look into them. Steve Attached Images

14th September 2007, 10:39 PM	#10
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Archer, The mark on your barrel reads, IMTIHAN. It means TESTED or PROVED Ham

14th September 2007, 11:27 PM	#11
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Proof Mark Hey Ham, Can you tell me if the proof mark is in Arabic, Turkish or Farsi? Thanks, rand

15th September 2007, 12:02 AM	#12
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	More Info Thanks Rand, I was pondering your question, when I spotted a proof mark peeping out almost hidden by the stock. I would say age mid 1800s. Then the lights came on briefly. All the British guns I've owned or handled are dripping with proof marks on all major parts. I have to assume German and other European guns would be the same. Thanks for the links, I'll look into them. Steve Thanks, Ham I thought it might be a date of manufacture. I had a glitch and double posted. Steve Attached Images Last edited by archer; 15th September 2007 at 12:31 AM. Reason: double post