A Rajput with his sword

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2007, 06:24 AM

Thank you so much guys for the outstanding response!!!
Does it not seem like many of the pommel decorative motifs reflect various suggestions of solar symbolism?
I notice that many of the Rajput associated tulwars have a vestigial extension from the pommel which seems reminiscent of those on the khanda, another sword form key to the Rajputs. The khanda is also key to the Sikhs, often closely associated with Rajputs, both effectively noted for forms of sword worship.

Lew and Bill, I think those Sikh photos, or some very similar, are found in the book "Warrior Saints" by P. Singh. The elaborately decorated turban is difficult to forget.

It seems that the earlier tulwar hilts tend to have smaller pommel discs, the larger forms of 19th c.

I do not have my trusty Pant at hand. Can anyone possibly post the illustrations of the varied tulwar hilt forms suggested by Pant?

All best regards,
Jim

Bill M · 14th September 2007, 08:06 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4071

Unfortunately these eBay auctions have expired. But I remember these pictures selling for over $5000 and another, similar set selling for $2000 plus. I'd like to find the book you mention, Jim.

Here are the other two pictures sold by the same seller

CourseEight · 15th September 2007, 03:58 AM

I thought I'd add mine, since no one has posted one like it yet. Oddly enough I didn't realize what was being represented until this post. Thanks kai!

Could be a sun on the inner part too. Two for the price of one?

--Radleigh

Bill M · 15th September 2007, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I do not have my trusty Pant at hand. Can anyone possibly post the illustrations of the varied tulwar hilt forms suggested by Pant?

All best regards,
Jim

Jim, I would like to find a copy of "Warrior Saints," By Singh, if you have any leads. Google turned up nothing.

I'll look in my Pants and see what I can find.

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2007, 09:38 PM

Hi Bill,
I acquired this book a number of years ago and I believe was acquiring it from the author, Parmjidt Singh, who was actually the co-author. I do not have the book at hand and cannot recall the other author. It is a great book that is primarily lots of great illustrations, those I believe included (at least they do look very familiar). I think trying the British Amazon might help as it was published in London.

Thanks very much everyone for the great responses and sharing more examples. Hopefully we can get some groupings and consistancies going. I am hoping that someone with Pant could post the several variations he has assigned so that we might use these as a benchmark. Although the terminology may or may not be accurately applied, it is the only attempt to standardize Indian tulwars hilts typologically and does serve well in that regard.

I am still unclear on the pommel dish size, and it seems that it has been suggested that larger forms are essentially later, c 19th c. Are we comfortable with that assertion or would the size be more likely to suggest a regional preference?

I am still intrigued by the comment made by Ariel on the other tulwar thread noting that quillons with slightly downward slope on tulwars suggest an earlier example. It seems that that view, while apparantly held by some, may be from a resource we are unable to locate. Can anyone shed any light on this feature?

Best regards,
Jim

Tabarzin · 16th September 2007, 01:33 AM

Hi Jim,

The authors of the book in question were Parmjit Singh and Amandeep Madra. It was a fascinating book and has now become extremely scarce. I'm in the process of ordering a few copies from a private seller and will post them in the swap forum shortly.

Picture of a tulwar hilt that I recently acquired

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2007, 02:45 AM

Hello Tabarzin,
Beautifil talwar!!!
Thank you for posting the names of the authors, I cannot even remember how long ago this was published, several years I think.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2007, 08:28 PM

OK I'll have a go at it

!
First of all, there is clearly a predominance of solar symbolism in the inside of the pommel dish. There is of course varying symbolism in India using this particular solar representation, and in the major Rajput lineages there are three basic lines; 1.) Suryavanshi...decended from the Hindu sun god Surya
2.) Chandravanshi..descent from Chandra, Hindu moon god.
3.) Agnivanshi...descent from Hindu god of fire.
* one of the pommel dish motifs seemed to suggest flames

The excellent examples of knuckleguarded talwars shown by Galvano and Dom both have the grip with central peaked shape, which I believe suggest Rajasthan with most examples of 19th century, though some references have indicated some earlier. The standard flueret shape langet on Galvanos seems less common on these as it seems the examples I have seen typically have the squared terminus langet as seen on Dom's. Interestingly the peaked grip and squared langet seem to usually be attributed to Udaipur (in Rajasthan).

Galvano, can you show a closeup of the brass disc on the chowk on yours?

The interesting pierced disc on the example shown by Course Eight, and the same piercing on the beautifully decorated example of Tabarzin, reminds me very much of such piercings in some regulation military swords such as the famed heavy cavalry 'disc hilt' sword of 1796 British and earlier Austrian patterns. The same effect was used later in variation on many regulation hilts. Presumably, as with fullering on blades, the intent was the lighten the sword. The suggestion of the lotus pod suggested here applied in Indian motif seems quite plausible, but would seem out of context in the decorated example of Tabarzin.

These are my thoughts and observations so far on these and I would welcome hearing those of others.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2007, 08:05 AM

Some notes concerning the Sikh photos posted by Lew. That extremely tall and unusual turban with the crescents etc. also carries the circular, sharp bladed discs termed 'quoit' or 'chakram'. These were thrown at the enemy either whirled around forefinger and released or held between thumb and forefinger and thrown underarm.
These seem primarily associated with the Sikh Akali sect.
It would be interesting to know if there were certain peculiarities or markings/motif key to the Sikhs of this sect on thier talwars, or other weapons.

14th September 2007, 08:06 AM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4071 Unfortunately these eBay auctions have expired. But I remember these pictures selling for over $5000 and another, similar set selling for $2000 plus. I'd like to find the book you mention, Jim. Here are the other two pictures sold by the same seller Attached Images Last edited by Bill Marsh; 14th September 2007 at 09:04 AM.

15th September 2007, 03:58 AM	#3
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	I thought I'd add mine, since no one has posted one like it yet. Oddly enough I didn't realize what was being represented until this post. Thanks kai! Could be a sun on the inner part too. Two for the price of one? --Radleigh Attached Images

16th September 2007, 01:33 AM	#6
Tabarzin Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 7	Hi Jim, The authors of the book in question were Parmjit Singh and Amandeep Madra. It was a fascinating book and has now become extremely scarce. I'm in the process of ordering a few copies from a private seller and will post them in the swap forum shortly. Picture of a tulwar hilt that I recently acquired Attached Images

14th September 2007, 06:24 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Thank you so much guys for the outstanding response!!! Does it not seem like many of the pommel decorative motifs reflect various suggestions of solar symbolism? I notice that many of the Rajput associated tulwars have a vestigial extension from the pommel which seems reminiscent of those on the khanda, another sword form key to the Rajputs. The khanda is also key to the Sikhs, often closely associated with Rajputs, both effectively noted for forms of sword worship. Lew and Bill, I think those Sikh photos, or some very similar, are found in the book "Warrior Saints" by P. Singh. The elaborately decorated turban is difficult to forget. It seems that the earlier tulwar hilts tend to have smaller pommel discs, the larger forms of 19th c. I do not have my trusty Pant at hand. Can anyone possibly post the illustrations of the varied tulwar hilt forms suggested by Pant? All best regards, Jim

15th September 2007, 09:38 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Bill, I acquired this book a number of years ago and I believe was acquiring it from the author, Parmjidt Singh, who was actually the co-author. I do not have the book at hand and cannot recall the other author. It is a great book that is primarily lots of great illustrations, those I believe included (at least they do look very familiar). I think trying the British Amazon might help as it was published in London. Thanks very much everyone for the great responses and sharing more examples. Hopefully we can get some groupings and consistancies going. I am hoping that someone with Pant could post the several variations he has assigned so that we might use these as a benchmark. Although the terminology may or may not be accurately applied, it is the only attempt to standardize Indian tulwars hilts typologically and does serve well in that regard. I am still unclear on the pommel dish size, and it seems that it has been suggested that larger forms are essentially later, c 19th c. Are we comfortable with that assertion or would the size be more likely to suggest a regional preference? I am still intrigued by the comment made by Ariel on the other tulwar thread noting that quillons with slightly downward slope on tulwars suggest an earlier example. It seems that that view, while apparantly held by some, may be from a resource we are unable to locate. Can anyone shed any light on this feature? Best regards, Jim

16th September 2007, 02:45 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hello Tabarzin, Beautifil talwar!!! Thank you for posting the names of the authors, I cannot even remember how long ago this was published, several years I think. All best regards, Jim

17th September 2007, 08:28 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	OK I'll have a go at it ! First of all, there is clearly a predominance of solar symbolism in the inside of the pommel dish. There is of course varying symbolism in India using this particular solar representation, and in the major Rajput lineages there are three basic lines; 1.) Suryavanshi...decended from the Hindu sun god Surya 2.) Chandravanshi..descent from Chandra, Hindu moon god. 3.) Agnivanshi...descent from Hindu god of fire. * one of the pommel dish motifs seemed to suggest flames The excellent examples of knuckleguarded talwars shown by Galvano and Dom both have the grip with central peaked shape, which I believe suggest Rajasthan with most examples of 19th century, though some references have indicated some earlier. The standard flueret shape langet on Galvanos seems less common on these as it seems the examples I have seen typically have the squared terminus langet as seen on Dom's. Interestingly the peaked grip and squared langet seem to usually be attributed to Udaipur (in Rajasthan). Galvano, can you show a closeup of the brass disc on the chowk on yours? The interesting pierced disc on the example shown by Course Eight, and the same piercing on the beautifully decorated example of Tabarzin, reminds me very much of such piercings in some regulation military swords such as the famed heavy cavalry 'disc hilt' sword of 1796 British and earlier Austrian patterns. The same effect was used later in variation on many regulation hilts. Presumably, as with fullering on blades, the intent was the lighten the sword. The suggestion of the lotus pod suggested here applied in Indian motif seems quite plausible, but would seem out of context in the decorated example of Tabarzin. These are my thoughts and observations so far on these and I would welcome hearing those of others. All best regards, Jim

18th September 2007, 08:05 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Some notes concerning the Sikh photos posted by Lew. That extremely tall and unusual turban with the crescents etc. also carries the circular, sharp bladed discs termed 'quoit' or 'chakram'. These were thrown at the enemy either whirled around forefinger and released or held between thumb and forefinger and thrown underarm. These seem primarily associated with the Sikh Akali sect. It would be interesting to know if there were certain peculiarities or markings/motif key to the Sikhs of this sect on thier talwars, or other weapons.