Musketeers/ Rifleholders

rand · 11th September 2007, 06:52 PM

The following is a quote form "A Dictionary of Military History", edited by Andre Corvisier.

"Following Howard's discovery of fulminate of mercury in 1800, firearms developed percussion systems to replace the flintlock. Percussion sporting guns were in common use by 1820 but not until 1838 did the British army begin to replace its flintlocks with percussion locks, the Pattern 1838. Most European armies adopted the new device during the 1840's. "

rand

rand · 11th September 2007, 07:31 PM

The discovery of fulminate of mercury by Howard followed by a Scots invention of the percussion cap, which then opened the door for Forsythes invention of the percussion lock shows the process for the evolution of the percussion lock.

And we have reference for how dependable this new lock(percussion) was considered at the time of use.

This lock was so successful that within a span of 25 years European armies adopted it by both retrofit or reissue of new arms to its soldiers.

The percussion lock on this Persian firearm has a rifled barrel so the term rifle aptly fits this weapon.

It has a very long heavy barrel similar to what the plains rifles in the USA was that was developed for the heavier game of settlers heading West, bison, bear, elk and so forth. The larger projectile would also not deflect as easily when shot through brush as its lighter Kentucky rifle counterpart would.

rand

rand · 26th October 2007, 07:17 PM

Had just received an opinion that the lock was Persian manufacture and dating to about 1845. So took more photo's relating to decoration near hammer on lock and when looking at new photo's enlarged on computer found a signature on the lock! Believe its most likely to be Farsi.

Not sure if gun was made with this lock at date of 1820 that is on barrel, which would certainly be possible. If lock would have put on later the firearm would have needed to have had a flintlock instead of a miquelet lock, that wouldn't be in the Persian taste in 1820 and seems unlikely.

What a fun puzzle to ponder...

rand

rand · 26th October 2007, 07:20 PM

Signature made a little clearer....

rand

fernando · 26th October 2007, 08:16 PM

Hi Rand.
Let me talk some nonsense.
Maybe trying a different aproach, by re focusing the eyes on the piece.
Why not the barrel having being made at an early stage, for flint or miquelete action, and later mounted on a new stock, with a percussion made lock coming with it. This would explain the decoration on the barrel being different than on the lock and tab, as also giving a more plausible date for both lock and barrel.
Fernando

rand · 26th October 2007, 08:37 PM

Hey Fernando,

Don't think you suggestion is nonsense at all, its a definate possibility. Would want to keep in mind that there would be a maker who specialized in locks, another in barrels, another in stocks and so forth.

How would you explain the percussion lock being put onto a stock where a miquelet lock was?

If the lock maker can be identified and be dated nearer the middle of the 19th century that would clear the way for more speculation. Either way its a fascinating puzzle to unfold.

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 26th October 2007, 09:43 PM

Rand, you have a fantastic collection – thank you for sharing.

When it comes to tulwars, several people were involved in making them; one made the blade, one the hilt, and one the outline of the decoration and another one made the decoration. Knowing this it is not difficult to see that it is more than likely that several craftsmen have been involved in making such a rifle, and like with the swords, parts of the rifle are likely to have been used, and reused over a longer period.

rand · 29th October 2007, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Signature made a little clearer....

rand

Have a translation now for the signature on the lock plate. Was told it was difficult to read, that is not to surprising when you consider the tallest letter is only about 1/8" in height and the entire signature is about 1/4" in width.

Its Farsi and reads," Amal-e Marsim" , translation thanks to Manouchehr

Could not find a reference for this signature, thats not uncommen, most signatures are not cataloged or published. Would have been very helpful to have known what time period this man worked.

rand

archer · 29th October 2007, 09:34 PM

Rand, Here is a shot from Topkapi Palace in Istanbul. Sure looks like a not too distant relative of your piece.
Regards, Steve

rand · 30th October 2007, 06:13 AM

Hi Steve,

Thanks for posting the photo's of the firearms in Topkapi Palace. They are both Turkish, the firearm below is a miquelet lock mounted on a Turkish stock. The rifle on the top has a flintlock action mounted on a European style stock. Both rifles are profusely ornamented with Turkish designs and most likely all parts are Turkish manufacture.

The Miquelet lock was the predecessor of the flintlock but never took hold in the Islamic countries where the miquelet lock remained the action of choice. This may because it had fewer parts making it more servicable.

The percussion lock was a huge jump in reliability and safety, it would have been very sought after by those that knew about it.

rand

11th September 2007, 06:52 PM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Quote referencing use of lock The following is a quote form "A Dictionary of Military History", edited by Andre Corvisier. "Following Howard's discovery of fulminate of mercury in 1800, firearms developed percussion systems to replace the flintlock. Percussion sporting guns were in common use by 1820 but not until 1838 did the British army begin to replace its flintlocks with percussion locks, the Pattern 1838. Most European armies adopted the new device during the 1840's. " rand

11th September 2007, 07:31 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Discovery, Invention, effects on history The discovery of fulminate of mercury by Howard followed by a Scots invention of the percussion cap, which then opened the door for Forsythes invention of the percussion lock shows the process for the evolution of the percussion lock. And we have reference for how dependable this new lock(percussion) was considered at the time of use. This lock was so successful that within a span of 25 years European armies adopted it by both retrofit or reissue of new arms to its soldiers. The percussion lock on this Persian firearm has a rifled barrel so the term rifle aptly fits this weapon. It has a very long heavy barrel similar to what the plains rifles in the USA was that was developed for the heavier game of settlers heading West, bison, bear, elk and so forth. The larger projectile would also not deflect as easily when shot through brush as its lighter Kentucky rifle counterpart would. rand

26th October 2007, 07:17 PM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Signature on Lock Farsi? Had just received an opinion that the lock was Persian manufacture and dating to about 1845. So took more photo's relating to decoration near hammer on lock and when looking at new photo's enlarged on computer found a signature on the lock! Believe its most likely to be Farsi. Not sure if gun was made with this lock at date of 1820 that is on barrel, which would certainly be possible. If lock would have put on later the firearm would have needed to have had a flintlock instead of a miquelet lock, that wouldn't be in the Persian taste in 1820 and seems unlikely. What a fun puzzle to ponder... rand Attached Images

26th October 2007, 07:20 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Signature a little clearer Signature made a little clearer.... rand Attached Images

26th October 2007, 08:37 PM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Its a possiblity Hey Fernando, Don't think you suggestion is nonsense at all, its a definate possibility. Would want to keep in mind that there would be a maker who specialized in locks, another in barrels, another in stocks and so forth. How would you explain the percussion lock being put onto a stock where a miquelet lock was? If the lock maker can be identified and be dated nearer the middle of the 19th century that would clear the way for more speculation. Either way its a fascinating puzzle to unfold. rand Attached Images

26th October 2007, 08:16 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Rand. Let me talk some nonsense. Maybe trying a different aproach, by re focusing the eyes on the piece. Why not the barrel having being made at an early stage, for flint or miquelete action, and later mounted on a new stock, with a percussion made lock coming with it. This would explain the decoration on the barrel being different than on the lock and tab, as also giving a more plausible date for both lock and barrel. Fernando

26th October 2007, 09:43 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Rand, you have a fantastic collection – thank you for sharing. When it comes to tulwars, several people were involved in making them; one made the blade, one the hilt, and one the outline of the decoration and another one made the decoration. Knowing this it is not difficult to see that it is more than likely that several craftsmen have been involved in making such a rifle, and like with the swords, parts of the rifle are likely to have been used, and reused over a longer period.

29th October 2007, 09:34 PM	#9
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Persian Musketeers/Rifleholder(?) Rand, Here is a shot from Topkapi Palace in Istanbul. Sure looks like a not too distant relative of your piece. Regards, Steve Attached Images

30th October 2007, 06:13 AM	#10
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Turkish Rifles Hi Steve, Thanks for posting the photo's of the firearms in Topkapi Palace. They are both Turkish, the firearm below is a miquelet lock mounted on a Turkish stock. The rifle on the top has a flintlock action mounted on a European style stock. Both rifles are profusely ornamented with Turkish designs and most likely all parts are Turkish manufacture. The Miquelet lock was the predecessor of the flintlock but never took hold in the Islamic countries where the miquelet lock remained the action of choice. This may because it had fewer parts making it more servicable. The percussion lock was a huge jump in reliability and safety, it would have been very sought after by those that knew about it. rand