A Kris-Tanto or hybridation as an answer

David · 10th September 2007, 02:32 AM

Well Antonio, i am sorry to see that you are choosing to leave what could be a very good discussion. I do think that you have misinterpreted a few of my statement however, so i will respond even if you choose not to.

Firstly i never meant to imply that you were seeking applause. Though i do find it interesting that your first two responses to comments here was just to say "nuff said" as if you weren't interested in hearing any more commentary in this direction.
Secondly, i clearly stated that i am not opposed to hybrids as a rule, it is just that i would like to see them as a logical evolution, not just the whim of the maker to create something new for art's sake only. I think your agrument on the richness of mixed cultures misses the point. When cultures mix, either by immigration or forced diaspora, the resulting cultural fusion and the artifacts which are created by it are part of an organic evolution created by time, place and necessity. Enslaved Africans mix with Spanish culture in Cuba and Rhumba, Son and eventually Latin Jazz are created as expression of a newly formed cultural hybrid. This is not what has happened in the creation of your tanto/kris. For me it is a forced hybrid with no cultural imperative. This doesn't mean it isn't "art", but as a member of the comedy troupe Monty Python once remarked, "I may not know art, but i know what i like".
BTW, I do enjoy much Classical, Jazz and Rock and Roll music and also many of the fusions the exist in between.

Lastly, i also enjoy a good discussion. I am also well aware that many of our favorite weapons are the products of cultural fusions and evolution. These evolutions are generally logical and organic in nature. They don't develop because some local smith wakes up one morning and says hey, what would happen if i combined a scimitar with a kukhri.
As for the evolution of the kris and the keris, my feelings are mixed. It is still possible that the Indonesian keris could be determined to be a still living and therefore evolving blade form. Certainly they do not hold the place in the culture that they once did, but they still serve as family pusaka for many, they are held in esteem in royal regalia, they still serve ceremonial function as in weddings, etc. If you pay attention to the new blades that are being made in Madura and Jawa you will sometimes see new features which could be seen as an evolution in the form. The Moro kris seems more a blade of the past to me. This doesn't mean that it is not still held in some high esteem culturally, but it doesn't seem to still be in high end production like it's Indonesian cousin is. It doesn't seem that there is any need for it to evolve as a blade form.
The bottom line is that you are welcome to find all the inspiration you can in ethnographic weapons and create all the hybrids that seem fit. In fact i encourage you in this. But you must keep in mind that i do not collect ethnographic weapons specifically for a love of metallurgy. It is the culture and history, the myth and the magick of the keris and kris that drive me to collect these wonderful weapons. I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form. Most custom knives do very little for me. I think that this might also be the case for many others involved in ethnographic weapons. So i think that it might be better if you could accept this as a different approach to edged weapons than your own. It doesn't mean i am ignorant of the roots ethnographic sword, nor of Jazz or cultural diversity. I am not trying to discourage you from your journey Antonio. I just have very little interest in it.

Antonio Cejunior · 10th September 2007, 05:42 AM

David,

Just an exceptional post to clarify a couple of things. I chose you to reply to, but my answer was not directed at you personally.

This being said, and having gone out and come back, I had the time to think about other associations in art, since what differs is my way of expression along with my interaction with Paolo Abrera.
I disagree about the forced hybridization that you mention for various number of reasons which I'll fundament.
1. I had the biggest opportunity to see a large number of swords of all kinds at the HOS exhibition and do allow me the right to be able to assimilate. I did not do it without seeing the real thing. Actually the original design was enriched by Paolo's input. I do know what is the reason for the baca-baca.

2. Cultural hybridization nowadays take much less time with the information society, otherwise any American smith who is doing a Japanese style sword would be subject to your invalidation. Cultural appropriations are, therefore, today of a different level and time.
3. No one objected to the incorporation of distant Japanese culture in paintings by the Impressionists nor organic shapes of Art Nouveau are exempt of Orientalist or even pseudo orientalistic influences. There was no direct contact.
4. Pablo Picasso was never in Africa, but it wasn't less legitimate of him to "take possession" of African masks shapes in his Demoiselles D'Avignon that led to Cubism.

Actually you are obviously entitled to like it or not. I did in fact anticipate what I just wrote above when I said that in the webpage that Then, slowly, hybridation as a cultural process of appropriation, viewed exogenously so as not to be bound by traditions, as too often, too much knowledge becomes to restrictive of creative freedom.

This was already written before the knife was finished.

I understand that once you say I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form you have already blocked any possibility of liking anything because you already carry with you a parti pris.

I do remain open to both ancient and new experimentations. That is why I decided not to discuss. Because there is no discussion possible

Cheers

David · 10th September 2007, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

I understand that once you say I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form you have already blocked any possibility of liking anything because you already carry with you a parti pris.

Actually i don't believe this is so. I like what i like when i see it. If a blade strikes me, be it old, new or some hybrid it will be something i give fair consideration to. If it happens to be a hybrid style custom knife i am not going to say to myself, oh no, i can't possibly like that, it's a custom hybrid. Antonio, you really make a whole lot of assumptions about me without having any idea who or what i am.

Again, i am not questioning the validity of cultural hybridization and i don't think anyone else here has either, so i am not sure why you feel it is necessary to justify it with your examples of impressionist painters and Picasso's "stolen" african cubism. All i have questioned is the validity of your particular project. Period. For me it doesn't work in this case. You have all the creative freedom you like to create whatever hybrid art you like...and i have the freedom not to like your result....and if you choose you post it here and ask people what they think that is what you are likely to get, opinions.

Jim McDougall · 10th September 2007, 06:54 AM

Just thought I would say this session of art appreciation 101 has been most interesting!

and I am glad that Antonio rejoined us here.
I would like to note that I honestly have always been focused on the study of antique arms and armor with focus on ethnographic edged weapons and have never really thought much about modern custom made edged weapons.
Actually, I never really liked the idea of reproduction or custom pieces since they had no historical value so could not be studied or researched

While I can claim no particular expertise in the study of art, I have very much enjoyed studying its historical applications and of course its considerations in the material culture associated with ethnographic studies. I do not believe that one must be an expert in art to genuinely appreciate it, and has has been seen here, certainly not to have adamate opinions on particular forms of it.

When I first saw the weapon Antonio posted here, I was more than impressed by it, and realized that I could admire and enjoy viewing this weapon as art, at least in my own perception. My perspective on the study of antique edged weapons remains completely uncompromised, and I have gained new perspective on these custom weapons.
Thank you very much Antonio for posting this beautiful example of well designed craftsmanship.

Since we are all sharing our opinions, I wanted to express mine.

Very best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 10th September 2007, 08:31 AM

Antonio's work displays confidence, something needed to show it here, which is more than I can say for myself. In doing so the full spectrum of opinion must be expected.

Ian · 10th September 2007, 01:33 PM

Thanks Tim, my thoughts also. Antonio's work is an inspired piece of art, with ethnographic weapons as its source. As art, it does not need to mean anything in the original culture(s), nor be functional. Just something to appreciate for its form and elegance (not that traditional arms lack form and elegance

).

A challenging piece, Antonio. Thanks for showing it here.

Ian.

Mark · 10th September 2007, 04:08 PM

Speaking as a moderator, I think the discussion has settled with a fair understanding on all sides, and I am happy to see that. Some feathers were ruffled (innovation & change tends to evoke that response), but I am very glad that the initial testiness has cooled off. In response to one unanswered question, whether or not this qualifies as an "ethnographic" weapon for the purposes of this forum, it of course pushes the boundries, as does the design itself. Having authored in part the mission statement of the forum, I can say that the intent to exclude "custom" knives was directed at contemporary blades that are either essentially reproductions (often of excellent quality) of historical forms, and modern designs that are not based on any particular historical model. It is hard to classify a design such as Antonios, but I think it is enough of a cultural expression, both as a reflection of past forms and as a contemporary reaction to these.

Speaking as a "private citizen," I think the design is interesting and dramatic, and the workmanship is superb, but doesn't strike a cord with me personally. That is probably because I don't have a particularly strong interest in either Japanese or Philippine blades. After all, they are not dha.

I do see a functional aspect of the baca baca, actually, as it substitutes for the habaki that appears on a traditional tanto.

Hybridizations and interpretations, often dramatic ones, are a real part of the history of weapons. An example I posted on recently is the hybrid daab/katana/keris that is the subject of this thread.

10th September 2007, 02:32 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	Well Antonio, i am sorry to see that you are choosing to leave what could be a very good discussion. I do think that you have misinterpreted a few of my statement however, so i will respond even if you choose not to. Firstly i never meant to imply that you were seeking applause. Though i do find it interesting that your first two responses to comments here was just to say "nuff said" as if you weren't interested in hearing any more commentary in this direction. Secondly, i clearly stated that i am not opposed to hybrids as a rule, it is just that i would like to see them as a logical evolution, not just the whim of the maker to create something new for art's sake only. I think your agrument on the richness of mixed cultures misses the point. When cultures mix, either by immigration or forced diaspora, the resulting cultural fusion and the artifacts which are created by it are part of an organic evolution created by time, place and necessity. Enslaved Africans mix with Spanish culture in Cuba and Rhumba, Son and eventually Latin Jazz are created as expression of a newly formed cultural hybrid. This is not what has happened in the creation of your tanto/kris. For me it is a forced hybrid with no cultural imperative. This doesn't mean it isn't "art", but as a member of the comedy troupe Monty Python once remarked, "I may not know art, but i know what i like". BTW, I do enjoy much Classical, Jazz and Rock and Roll music and also many of the fusions the exist in between. Lastly, i also enjoy a good discussion. I am also well aware that many of our favorite weapons are the products of cultural fusions and evolution. These evolutions are generally logical and organic in nature. They don't develop because some local smith wakes up one morning and says hey, what would happen if i combined a scimitar with a kukhri. As for the evolution of the kris and the keris, my feelings are mixed. It is still possible that the Indonesian keris could be determined to be a still living and therefore evolving blade form. Certainly they do not hold the place in the culture that they once did, but they still serve as family pusaka for many, they are held in esteem in royal regalia, they still serve ceremonial function as in weddings, etc. If you pay attention to the new blades that are being made in Madura and Jawa you will sometimes see new features which could be seen as an evolution in the form. The Moro kris seems more a blade of the past to me. This doesn't mean that it is not still held in some high esteem culturally, but it doesn't seem to still be in high end production like it's Indonesian cousin is. It doesn't seem that there is any need for it to evolve as a blade form. The bottom line is that you are welcome to find all the inspiration you can in ethnographic weapons and create all the hybrids that seem fit. In fact i encourage you in this. But you must keep in mind that i do not collect ethnographic weapons specifically for a love of metallurgy. It is the culture and history, the myth and the magick of the keris and kris that drive me to collect these wonderful weapons. I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form. Most custom knives do very little for me. I think that this might also be the case for many others involved in ethnographic weapons. So i think that it might be better if you could accept this as a different approach to edged weapons than your own. It doesn't mean i am ignorant of the roots ethnographic sword, nor of Jazz or cultural diversity. I am not trying to discourage you from your journey Antonio. I just have very little interest in it.

10th September 2007, 05:42 AM	#2
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	David, Just an exceptional post to clarify a couple of things. I chose you to reply to, but my answer was not directed at you personally. This being said, and having gone out and come back, I had the time to think about other associations in art, since what differs is my way of expression along with my interaction with Paolo Abrera. I disagree about the forced hybridization that you mention for various number of reasons which I'll fundament. 1. I had the biggest opportunity to see a large number of swords of all kinds at the HOS exhibition and do allow me the right to be able to assimilate. I did not do it without seeing the real thing. Actually the original design was enriched by Paolo's input. I do know what is the reason for the baca-baca. 2. Cultural hybridization nowadays take much less time with the information society, otherwise any American smith who is doing a Japanese style sword would be subject to your invalidation. Cultural appropriations are, therefore, today of a different level and time. 3. No one objected to the incorporation of distant Japanese culture in paintings by the Impressionists nor organic shapes of Art Nouveau are exempt of Orientalist or even pseudo orientalistic influences. There was no direct contact. 4. Pablo Picasso was never in Africa, but it wasn't less legitimate of him to "take possession" of African masks shapes in his Demoiselles D'Avignon that led to Cubism. Actually you are obviously entitled to like it or not. I did in fact anticipate what I just wrote above when I said that in the webpage that *Then, slowly, hybridation as a cultural process of appropriation, viewed exogenously so as not to be bound by traditions, as too often, too much knowledge becomes to restrictive of creative freedom.* This was already written before the knife was finished. I understand that once you say I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form you have already blocked any possibility of liking anything because you already carry with you a parti pris. I do remain open to both ancient and new experimentations. That is why I decided not to discuss. Because there is no discussion possible Cheers

10th September 2007, 06:54 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Just thought I would say this session of art appreciation 101 has been most interesting! and I am glad that Antonio rejoined us here. I would like to note that I honestly have always been focused on the study of antique arms and armor with focus on ethnographic edged weapons and have never really thought much about modern custom made edged weapons. Actually, I never really liked the idea of reproduction or custom pieces since they had no historical value so could not be studied or researched While I can claim no particular expertise in the study of art, I have very much enjoyed studying its historical applications and of course its considerations in the material culture associated with ethnographic studies. I do not believe that one must be an expert in art to genuinely appreciate it, and has has been seen here, certainly not to have adamate opinions on particular forms of it. When I first saw the weapon Antonio posted here, I was more than impressed by it, and realized that I could admire and enjoy viewing this weapon as art, at least in my own perception. My perspective on the study of antique edged weapons remains completely uncompromised, and I have gained new perspective on these custom weapons. Thank you very much Antonio for posting this beautiful example of well designed craftsmanship. Since we are all sharing our opinions, I wanted to express mine. Very best regards, Jim

10th September 2007, 08:31 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Antonio's work displays confidence, something needed to show it here, which is more than I can say for myself. In doing so the full spectrum of opinion must be expected.

10th September 2007, 01:33 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Thanks Tim, my thoughts also. Antonio's work is an inspired piece of art, with ethnographic weapons as its source. As art, it does not need to mean anything in the original culture(s), nor be functional. Just something to appreciate for its form and elegance (not that traditional arms lack form and elegance ). A challenging piece, Antonio. Thanks for showing it here. Ian.

10th September 2007, 04:08 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Speaking as a moderator, I think the discussion has settled with a fair understanding on all sides, and I am happy to see that. Some feathers were ruffled (innovation & change tends to evoke that response), but I am very glad that the initial testiness has cooled off. In response to one unanswered question, whether or not this qualifies as an "ethnographic" weapon for the purposes of this forum, it of course pushes the boundries, as does the design itself. Having authored in part the mission statement of the forum, I can say that the intent to exclude "custom" knives was directed at contemporary blades that are either essentially reproductions (often of excellent quality) of historical forms, and modern designs that are not based on any particular historical model. It is hard to classify a design such as Antonios, but I think it is enough of a cultural expression, both as a reflection of past forms and as a contemporary reaction to these. Speaking as a "private citizen," I think the design is interesting and dramatic, and the workmanship is superb, but doesn't strike a cord with me personally. That is probably because I don't have a particularly strong interest in either Japanese or Philippine blades. After all, they are not dha. I do see a functional aspect of the baca baca, actually, as it substitutes for the habaki that appears on a traditional tanto. Hybridizations and interpretations, often dramatic ones, are a real part of the history of weapons. An example I posted on recently is the hybrid daab/katana/keris that is the subject of this thread.