Tibetan Metalwork Timeline

rand · 10th September 2007, 12:31 AM

Circa 1300 Mongolian saddle plate....

rand

rand · 10th September 2007, 12:46 AM

This Chinese saddle from the Qianlong Dynasty (1736-95) and from royal workshop, is numbered as was custom for some royal objexcts but no signature of maker.

You see how it can get confusing to date and determine origen.

rand

dennee · 11th September 2007, 08:01 PM

Particularly if you are going to look at cast ritual objects in addition to the filigree type of work, you should probably look at sources on Newari metalwork in addition to those on Chinese and Tibetan.

rand · 11th September 2007, 11:15 PM

Hey Dennee,

Am in total agreement with you that Newari metalwork should be included because of their close relationship with Tibet. Alos believe Indian metalwork very closely related and there are many accounts of Indian arms and armor being used and imported into Tibet. In fact from 700-900 AD that area was part of the Tibetan Empire and Tibet was larger than China at that time. However my focus is from 1300-1900 during which the borders of Tibet remain fairly constant.

The Metalwork is virtually the same from Bhutan and Nepal at times, with differences apprearing in style and not decoration. In arms and armor Tibetan, Nepalese and Bhutanese items are very scarce prior to 1600, but that the same time they seem to be at the height of their art then too.

The advantage of using Chinese Art as a reference is that besides being a huge influence on its neighbors they is also quite a bit of study done in ceramics and textiles that you can use the trend in design and petterns used to help date Tibetan metalwork by comparing designs and art work.

Link below shows old maps and time periods of Tibet...
http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html

rand

rand · 4th October 2007, 07:19 AM

this is a series of maps that show a geographic timeline of Tibet and its neighboring countries.... Below is web link of attachment

http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html

rand

rand · 4th October 2007, 07:30 AM

Tibetan Sadddle Circa 1700....

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2007, 05:39 PM

Rand,
This thread is absolutely magnificent!!! An excellent presentation on such an esoteric topic, and represents outstanding application in the systematic study of not only ethnographic material culture, but in our case, weapons as well.
I agree with you on Oakeshott's system of cataloging swords which provided a most definitive benchmark for identification and future study in a systematic reference. While these set the pace for the very early sword hilts, A.V.B. Norman also used artwork to similar advantage in his work on the smallsword and rapier hilts.

Thank you for sharing the work you're doing on this! I very much appreciate getting to learn more on Tibetan material culture, which has had little available information at all until Mr. LaRocca's book came out. I think its great that you're continuing in expanding the base of knowledge, especially with such great detail.
Please keep up the good work, I'm hooked!!!

All the best,
Jim

10th September 2007, 12:31 AM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Circa 1300 saddle plate Circa 1300 Mongolian saddle plate.... rand Attached Images

10th September 2007, 12:46 AM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Chinese Saddle This Chinese saddle from the Qianlong Dynasty (1736-95) and from royal workshop, is numbered as was custom for some royal objexcts but no signature of maker. You see how it can get confusing to date and determine origen. rand Attached Images

11th September 2007, 11:15 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Tibetan Metalwork Hey Dennee, Am in total agreement with you that Newari metalwork should be included because of their close relationship with Tibet. Alos believe Indian metalwork very closely related and there are many accounts of Indian arms and armor being used and imported into Tibet. In fact from 700-900 AD that area was part of the Tibetan Empire and Tibet was larger than China at that time. However my focus is from 1300-1900 during which the borders of Tibet remain fairly constant. The Metalwork is virtually the same from Bhutan and Nepal at times, with differences apprearing in style and not decoration. In arms and armor Tibetan, Nepalese and Bhutanese items are very scarce prior to 1600, but that the same time they seem to be at the height of their art then too. The advantage of using Chinese Art as a reference is that besides being a huge influence on its neighbors they is also quite a bit of study done in ceramics and textiles that you can use the trend in design and petterns used to help date Tibetan metalwork by comparing designs and art work. Link below shows old maps and time periods of Tibet... http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html rand

4th October 2007, 07:19 AM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Tibetan Map Timelines this is a series of maps that show a geographic timeline of Tibet and its neighboring countries.... Below is web link of attachment http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html rand Attached Images

4th October 2007, 07:30 AM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Tibetan Saddle Circa 1700 Tibetan Sadddle Circa 1700.... Attached Images

11th September 2007, 08:01 PM	#3
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Particularly if you are going to look at cast ritual objects in addition to the filigree type of work, you should probably look at sources on Newari metalwork in addition to those on Chinese and Tibetan.

4th October 2007, 05:39 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	Rand, This thread is absolutely magnificent!!! An excellent presentation on such an esoteric topic, and represents outstanding application in the systematic study of not only ethnographic material culture, but in our case, weapons as well. I agree with you on Oakeshott's system of cataloging swords which provided a most definitive benchmark for identification and future study in a systematic reference. While these set the pace for the very early sword hilts, A.V.B. Norman also used artwork to similar advantage in his work on the smallsword and rapier hilts. Thank you for sharing the work you're doing on this! I very much appreciate getting to learn more on Tibetan material culture, which has had little available information at all until Mr. LaRocca's book came out. I think its great that you're continuing in expanding the base of knowledge, especially with such great detail. Please keep up the good work, I'm hooked!!! All the best, Jim