Tibetan Metalwork Timeline

kai · 10th September 2007, 12:03 AM

Hello Rand,

Thanks for posting these examples!

BTW, are these from a similar area? I understand that Tibet always had quite distinct regions (with differing ethnic groups and vastly divergent influences from neighboring countries and/or immigrants) and I'd suppose that these were reflected in artwork?

Regards,
Kai

rand · 10th September 2007, 12:29 AM

Hi Kai,

Ususally the references for where a Tibetan example of pierced ironwork is from refer to the Derge Valley (pronounced Dur-gay) and even call it Derge work sometimes. More is being published about this type work now, there were also examles made in the Chinese workshops, including the royal workshops as gifts for Tibetan high ranking men. By the way this valley was usually in China.

These types of metalwork were not signed, not even pieces made for royalty, sometimes they were numbered in the Chinese Royal workshop. For that reason some objects are very datable to a particular ruler or reign.

There has been no difinitive study done that parallels Oakshotts, the "Archeology of Weapons" Sword. Where a systematic chronology of design has was determnined by camparisons to datable art, effigies, stained glass and archeology.

Would be more difficult in general with Tibetan art as similar designs were used over hundreds of years. Even so, different reigns with follow different styles that over time will eventually be in a chronological order.

Attched photo is a Chinese or tibetan saddle circa 1400...

This date is according to Donald Larocca, talked with him on the phone about and believe he thinks the early date attributed for this saddle a bit ambitious. But getting a theory out there to be criticized and fall or stand up is what its all about.....

rand

rand · 10th September 2007, 12:31 AM

Circa 1300 Mongolian saddle plate....

rand

rand · 10th September 2007, 12:46 AM

This Chinese saddle from the Qianlong Dynasty (1736-95) and from royal workshop, is numbered as was custom for some royal objexcts but no signature of maker.

You see how it can get confusing to date and determine origen.

rand

dennee · 11th September 2007, 08:01 PM

Particularly if you are going to look at cast ritual objects in addition to the filigree type of work, you should probably look at sources on Newari metalwork in addition to those on Chinese and Tibetan.

rand · 11th September 2007, 11:15 PM

Hey Dennee,

Am in total agreement with you that Newari metalwork should be included because of their close relationship with Tibet. Alos believe Indian metalwork very closely related and there are many accounts of Indian arms and armor being used and imported into Tibet. In fact from 700-900 AD that area was part of the Tibetan Empire and Tibet was larger than China at that time. However my focus is from 1300-1900 during which the borders of Tibet remain fairly constant.

The Metalwork is virtually the same from Bhutan and Nepal at times, with differences apprearing in style and not decoration. In arms and armor Tibetan, Nepalese and Bhutanese items are very scarce prior to 1600, but that the same time they seem to be at the height of their art then too.

The advantage of using Chinese Art as a reference is that besides being a huge influence on its neighbors they is also quite a bit of study done in ceramics and textiles that you can use the trend in design and petterns used to help date Tibetan metalwork by comparing designs and art work.

Link below shows old maps and time periods of Tibet...
http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html

rand

rand · 4th October 2007, 07:19 AM

this is a series of maps that show a geographic timeline of Tibet and its neighboring countries.... Below is web link of attachment

http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html

rand

10th September 2007, 12:29 AM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Derge Valley Hi Kai, Ususally the references for where a Tibetan example of pierced ironwork is from refer to the Derge Valley (pronounced Dur-gay) and even call it Derge work sometimes. More is being published about this type work now, there were also examles made in the Chinese workshops, including the royal workshops as gifts for Tibetan high ranking men. By the way this valley was usually in China. These types of metalwork were not signed, not even pieces made for royalty, sometimes they were numbered in the Chinese Royal workshop. For that reason some objects are very datable to a particular ruler or reign. There has been no difinitive study done that parallels Oakshotts, the "Archeology of Weapons" Sword. Where a systematic chronology of design has was determnined by camparisons to datable art, effigies, stained glass and archeology. Would be more difficult in general with Tibetan art as similar designs were used over hundreds of years. Even so, different reigns with follow different styles that over time will eventually be in a chronological order. Attched photo is a Chinese or tibetan saddle circa 1400... This date is according to Donald Larocca, talked with him on the phone about and believe he thinks the early date attributed for this saddle a bit ambitious. But getting a theory out there to be criticized and fall or stand up is what its all about..... rand Attached Images Last edited by rand; 10th September 2007 at 06:02 AM.

10th September 2007, 12:31 AM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Circa 1300 saddle plate Circa 1300 Mongolian saddle plate.... rand Attached Images

10th September 2007, 12:46 AM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Chinese Saddle This Chinese saddle from the Qianlong Dynasty (1736-95) and from royal workshop, is numbered as was custom for some royal objexcts but no signature of maker. You see how it can get confusing to date and determine origen. rand Attached Images

11th September 2007, 11:15 PM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Tibetan Metalwork Hey Dennee, Am in total agreement with you that Newari metalwork should be included because of their close relationship with Tibet. Alos believe Indian metalwork very closely related and there are many accounts of Indian arms and armor being used and imported into Tibet. In fact from 700-900 AD that area was part of the Tibetan Empire and Tibet was larger than China at that time. However my focus is from 1300-1900 during which the borders of Tibet remain fairly constant. The Metalwork is virtually the same from Bhutan and Nepal at times, with differences apprearing in style and not decoration. In arms and armor Tibetan, Nepalese and Bhutanese items are very scarce prior to 1600, but that the same time they seem to be at the height of their art then too. The advantage of using Chinese Art as a reference is that besides being a huge influence on its neighbors they is also quite a bit of study done in ceramics and textiles that you can use the trend in design and petterns used to help date Tibetan metalwork by comparing designs and art work. Link below shows old maps and time periods of Tibet... http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html rand

4th October 2007, 07:19 AM	#7
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Tibetan Map Timelines this is a series of maps that show a geographic timeline of Tibet and its neighboring countries.... Below is web link of attachment http://www.tibetmap.org/pw4br.html rand Attached Images

10th September 2007, 12:03 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Rand, Thanks for posting these examples! BTW, are these from a similar area? I understand that Tibet always had quite distinct regions (with differing ethnic groups and vastly divergent influences from neighboring countries and/or immigrants) and I'd suppose that these were reflected in artwork? Regards, Kai

11th September 2007, 08:01 PM	#5
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Particularly if you are going to look at cast ritual objects in addition to the filigree type of work, you should probably look at sources on Newari metalwork in addition to those on Chinese and Tibetan.