A Kris-Tanto or hybridation as an answer

Antonio Cejunior · 9th September 2007, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Antonio

I collected and designed custom knives for 20 years before I became interested in antique ethnograhic weapons and to me your knife though beautifully made and pleasing to the eye is in my opinion a custom knife. I have many books with that show similar experiments in melding knife designs from two different cultures and these are considered fantasy pieces because historically they would never have been made in that way. I thought forum's purpose was to explore other cultures through their weapons which are unique to each individual groups enthnic and historical indentity. Your piece starts to blurr the lines in my opinion thats all.

Lew

Thank you for your opinion Lew.
It is obviously a custom knife

I never use books to design anything so I am not conditioned by any other influence.
I am now enlightened that I should have not posted in this forum.
May I ask our kind moderators to please delete my post?
I'm supposed to have blurred the lines of ethnic groups and their historical identity. My bad I suppose

David · 9th September 2007, 03:24 PM

You might be right Antonio, but i'm sorry that you think this is not the right place to post this creation. It is here though, so i will comment on it. While i am not as a rule opposed to such hybrids i don't think this one works for me. Of course the first question that crosses my mind in a case such as this is why do such a thing in the first place? In my mind to give it validity it must have a logical purpose. While i can see that this is a masterfully created piece it doesn't really speak to me on any level, nor do i understand the desire to create such a thing and unlike some other opinions i don't find it particularly asthetically pleasing either. Placing baca-baca on this piece seems a rather superficial way to imply Moro cultural identity. And the second one that pierces the blade just disturbs me for some reason. It also seems unnecessary for your purpose since many Moro kris have only one.

I am sorry that you didn't receive the approval that you were hoping for and received on other forums for this piece. I think we do tend to be a group of purists at heart here. I am not sure that means this should never have been posted here and i do hope that the Mods don't take your advice to delete this post. Opinions are just that and should be aired freely. And if you think about it, it is probably useful information for you to know how ethnographic collectors might respond to such a creation.
I would also like to comment that i think it best not to go back to a post and delete passages that another forumite has already responded to unless it is obvious that it is truly offensive and not just a regretful wording. It only adds confusion and breaks continuity.

Rick · 9th September 2007, 04:12 PM

I would suggest that Antonio's piece does belong here as it was manufactured by hand and is, even if a fusion of two differing cultures, still falls under the definition of Ethnographic .

I always enjoy seeing the products of your fertile imagination Antonio.

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2007, 04:37 PM

Antonio and his chum are working to very high standards. There are obvious problems of mixing styles without a living reason to do so. This is a good example showing how quality workmanship and design can be far removed from art. I think to see hybridisation as art look no further than the Mauser inspired sword, it speaks to you very sympathetically.

ariel · 9th September 2007, 05:12 PM

Guys, can we discuss things without rancor?
Some may like the dagger, some may not, some may think it is too "fantasy" to qualify as ethnographic, all this is fine.
I just think there is no sense getting personal.
I'd rather see similar re-interpretations ( that exercise imagination) than pseudo-faithful renditions of authentic weapons that pretend to be real but are not. This one is an "in-your-face" dagger and is fun to look at.
For me, a modern-made sword replicating the old pattern always carries a whiff of a commercial fake. This one does not pretend to look antique and authentic: it is art. Judge it by its own standards.

Jim McDougall · 9th September 2007, 05:51 PM

I would like to note that although it is obvious that the piece created by Antonio and Paolo is entirely an artistic creation, I found it fascinating to see how it was done as well as the harmony between designer and artisan. While this may not be well placed in a forum dedicated to preserving the history and development of ethnographic edged weapons forms, it presents very interesting perspective on how hybrid weapons often evolved historically. As Tim well pointed out, the 'Mauser sword' item being an excellent case in point.

I share the same passion for preserving not only the history of the weapons we study, but the weapons themselves ,and always dread those who carry out overcleanings, excessive 'restorations' and of course fakes and fraudulent composites. This creation was none of these.

In my opinion, the creation that Antonio presented was a beautiful piece of art, not intended as a reproduction nor as a representative example, and I very much appreciated seeing it. I realize how passionately those here that are involved in these weapons perceive them, and am constantly amazed at the knowledge on them that is shared here, but cannot see how this creation could be construed as anything but art.

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2007, 06:40 PM

Its art Jim but not as we know it.

at last.

There is a big industry, those art print shops in every big town that sell art for people who do not like art.

rand · 9th September 2007, 07:18 PM

Don't quite understand the concept that traditional weapons didn't cross boundries while this modern dagger does.

Influences from neighboring countries or regions that trade is done with have had an influence on culture,weapons and armor throughout history and we would have to start with the rock and stick if we wanted to give a study for reference of this.

Aesthetically the blade had a refined tribal form coupled with a ritual function, the hilt looked off balance but that may have been because of the angle the photo was taken from. Also liked the concept of using the Indonesian type of bolsa to snug the dagger into the scabbard. The designs cut into the edge of the blade carry asthetic and cultural symbols that add value to the holder/owner. Personally would have preferred seeing the drilled hole in the blade completely covered with a silver decoration with some sort of an associated design.

Most people would say the style of dagger is based on a Japanese tanto. Or is it really? We could discuss where the Japanese got their basic design from, now that would put a hitch in the road, especially if it went back to China. There was a good reason for Japan to stay so isolated, they just did it to well and too long.

Sometimes if you want to know what works when making something you need only to look at objects from history, believe a 15th century German sallet was the basis for the German 20th century helmet.

Can understand the concept of wanting to keep a discussion in a certain time period, just as one may want to have a show of antique weapons only. But then antique has to be over a hundred years old by definition. So where would one draw the line? Because thats what much of the response is doing, drawing a line in the dirt as was done outside the Alamo by Colonel Ben Milam.

Its a tough question....

For me my answer used to be the Franco Prussian War of 1870-71, because this was the first time that modern rifled firearms decimated men wearing armor(French heavy cavalry), but that left out all the great Russian metalwork on shashkas, daggers and firearms, left out the tribal weapons of the 20th century archipelgo, left out the decline of the sabre in modern armies, left out the progression of the bayonette, left out the change of materials for armor.

Where would you draw the line?

rand

Lew · 9th September 2007, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I would suggest that Antonio's piece does belong here as it was manufactured by hand and is, even if a fusion of two differing cultures, still falls under the definition of Ethnographic .

I always enjoy seeing the products of your fertile imagination Antonio.

Rick

This is a quote from our welcome page.

"Modern custom knives would qualify as an artifact of our own "culture", but will not be considered here, as they are better represented elsewhere."

So even though the theme of the dagger is ethnograhic and was made in the Philippines by a native Philippino it is still a modern non traditional custom piece.

Lew

tunggulametung · 9th September 2007, 05:45 PM

I would rather encourage Antonio and his team to master the making of traditional Moro weapon instead (if possible in traditional method). So the art of Moro weapon is not vanishing and a new quality pieces are available.

I believe there are still some demand in the local area too (Southern Philippines). I would also recommend to made the pieces by order only just the way it done in older time.

Just my opinion.

Antonio Cejunior · 9th September 2007, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You might be right Antonio, but i'm sorry that you think this is not the right place to post this creation. It is here though, so i will comment on it. While i am not as a rule opposed to such hybrids i don't think this one works for me. Of course the first question that crosses my mind in a case such as this is why do such a thing in the first place? In my mind to give it validity it must have a logical purpose. While i can see that this is a masterfully created piece it doesn't really speak to me on any level, nor do i understand the desire to create such a thing and unlike some other opinions i don't find it particularly asthetically pleasing either. Placing baca-baca on this piece seems a rather superficial way to imply Moro cultural identity. And the second one that pierces the blade just disturbs me for some reason. It also seems unnecessary for your purpose since many Moro kris have only one.

I am sorry that you didn't receive the approval that you were hoping for and received on other forums for this piece. I think we do tend to be a group of purists at heart here. I am not sure that means this should never have been posted here and i do hope that the Mods don't take your advice to delete this post. Opinions are just that and should be aired freely. And if you think about it, it is probably useful information for you to know how ethnographic collectors might respond to such a creation.
I would also like to comment that i think it best not to go back to a post and delete passages that another forumite has already responded to unless it is obvious that it is truly offensive and not just a regretful wording. It only adds confusion and breaks continuity.

David,

This will be my last post on this thread and I will explain why.
I'm too old to seek applause. Some folks here do know me quite well and know I'm not interested in applause.

Secondly, I am not just interested in knives or swords specifically but in culture in general, and I have always understood what conservative stances meant. It opposes change, evolution, change.
The irony here is that most of the weapons under discussion, specially Kris and Keris, are themselves a product of cultural migrations or hybridization, and if you or anyone fail to accept that they must not evolve, you are failing, like the Classic Music lovers, who dismiss Jazz as a horrible collection of non-harmonical sounds. Fortunately there were people like Pavarotti that opened the stages they stepped in to Rock performers.

Being conservative or purist over something that is a product of cultural exchanges at ethnic level, is the same as refusing the richness of multi-ethnical Americans, which is an irony. Is as if one refused the way An Afro-American renders his way of being American, or a Latin-American, or an Italo-American, or a Sino-American. It's purely both ironical to deny the richness of diversity originated by immigrants from other continents!!!

Not being a native English speaker, I once was striken by a BBC programme called The History of English. It showed how English was rendered in different places of the world, from the UK to Australia and to places like Jamaica. In other words, it explained the richness of evolution acculturations.

I do love Jazz and I do like to hear a New Yorker say a man gotta do what he's gotta do and I love Brazilian Portuguese, or hear an Indian speak English, or the way an Angolan speaks Portuguese.

I don't want any legitimization for this thread here. I don't need excuses because I myself am a product of multi-ethnicity, from Portuguese to Jew, to Indian, Italian and Irish, and I live in the oldest 450 years outpost in the Far-East, and as a result of such multicultural place, I speak Portuguese, Cantonese, Mandarin, Spanish, Italian, French, a bit of Japanese, a bit of German, and I am open to more.

I seek to learn, and actually the self called purists here have reconfirmed what I already knew.

Lastly I would like to say I like a good discussion. And that does not mean agreeing. But what I see here is the denial of the essence of the roots of ethnical swords. What some here are actually saying to me is, stick to what exists and we do need a reason for those squeeky sounds you're making with this approach. What some of you are saying is, do not acknowledge the richness of ethnographical weapons by getting inspired by them and evolving.
Just stick on discussing what exists.

Sorry guys, I will not take your advise, I have abundantly proved by putting my money where my mouth is, that I am opened to all areas but I will continue my journey without looking back.

Thank you for your time.

9th September 2007, 07:18 PM	#8
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Crossing Boundries? Don't quite understand the concept that traditional weapons didn't cross boundries while this modern dagger does. Influences from neighboring countries or regions that trade is done with have had an influence on culture,weapons and armor throughout history and we would have to start with the rock and stick if we wanted to give a study for reference of this. Aesthetically the blade had a refined tribal form coupled with a ritual function, the hilt looked off balance but that may have been because of the angle the photo was taken from. Also liked the concept of using the Indonesian type of bolsa to snug the dagger into the scabbard. The designs cut into the edge of the blade carry asthetic and cultural symbols that add value to the holder/owner. Personally would have preferred seeing the drilled hole in the blade completely covered with a silver decoration with some sort of an associated design. Most people would say the style of dagger is based on a Japanese tanto. Or is it really? We could discuss where the Japanese got their basic design from, now that would put a hitch in the road, especially if it went back to China. There was a good reason for Japan to stay so isolated, they just did it to well and too long. Sometimes if you want to know what works when making something you need only to look at objects from history, believe a 15th century German sallet was the basis for the German 20th century helmet. Can understand the concept of wanting to keep a discussion in a certain time period, just as one may want to have a show of antique weapons only. But then antique has to be over a hundred years old by definition. So where would one draw the line? Because thats what much of the response is doing, drawing a line in the dirt as was done outside the Alamo by Colonel Ben Milam. Its a tough question.... For me my answer used to be the Franco Prussian War of 1870-71, because this was the first time that modern rifled firearms decimated men wearing armor(French heavy cavalry), but that left out all the great Russian metalwork on shashkas, daggers and firearms, left out the tribal weapons of the 20th century archipelgo, left out the decline of the sabre in modern armies, left out the progression of the bayonette, left out the change of materials for armor. Where would you draw the line? rand

9th September 2007, 05:45 PM	#10
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Moving the Project To Traditional Standard I would rather encourage Antonio and his team to master the making of traditional Moro weapon instead (if possible in traditional method). So the art of Moro weapon is not vanishing and a new quality pieces are available. I believe there are still some demand in the local area too (Southern Philippines). I would also recommend to made the pieces by order only just the way it done in older time. Just my opinion.

9th September 2007, 03:24 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	You might be right Antonio, but i'm sorry that you think this is not the right place to post this creation. It is here though, so i will comment on it. While i am not as a rule opposed to such hybrids i don't think this one works for me. Of course the first question that crosses my mind in a case such as this is why do such a thing in the first place? In my mind to give it validity it must have a logical purpose. While i can see that this is a masterfully created piece it doesn't really speak to me on any level, nor do i understand the desire to create such a thing and unlike some other opinions i don't find it particularly asthetically pleasing either. Placing baca-baca on this piece seems a rather superficial way to imply Moro cultural identity. And the second one that pierces the blade just disturbs me for some reason. It also seems unnecessary for your purpose since many Moro kris have only one. I am sorry that you didn't receive the approval that you were hoping for and received on other forums for this piece. I think we do tend to be a group of purists at heart here. I am not sure that means this should never have been posted here and i do hope that the Mods don't take your advice to delete this post. Opinions are just that and should be aired freely. And if you think about it, it is probably useful information for you to know how ethnographic collectors might respond to such a creation. I would also like to comment that i think it best not to go back to a post and delete passages that another forumite has already responded to unless it is obvious that it is truly offensive and not just a regretful wording. It only adds confusion and breaks continuity.

9th September 2007, 04:12 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I would suggest that Antonio's piece does belong here as it was manufactured by hand and is, even if a fusion of two differing cultures, still falls under the definition of Ethnographic . I always enjoy seeing the products of your fertile imagination Antonio.

9th September 2007, 04:37 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Antonio and his chum are working to very high standards. There are obvious problems of mixing styles without a living reason to do so. This is a good example showing how quality workmanship and design can be far removed from art. I think to see hybridisation as art look no further than the Mauser inspired sword, it speaks to you very sympathetically.

9th September 2007, 05:12 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Guys, can we discuss things without rancor? Some may like the dagger, some may not, some may think it is too "fantasy" to qualify as ethnographic, all this is fine. I just think there is no sense getting personal. I'd rather see similar re-interpretations ( that exercise imagination) than pseudo-faithful renditions of authentic weapons that pretend to be real but are not. This one is an "in-your-face" dagger and is fun to look at. For me, a modern-made sword replicating the old pattern always carries a whiff of a commercial fake. This one does not pretend to look antique and authentic: it is art. Judge it by its own standards.

9th September 2007, 05:51 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I would like to note that although it is obvious that the piece created by Antonio and Paolo is entirely an artistic creation, I found it fascinating to see how it was done as well as the harmony between designer and artisan. While this may not be well placed in a forum dedicated to preserving the history and development of ethnographic edged weapons forms, it presents very interesting perspective on how hybrid weapons often evolved historically. As Tim well pointed out, the 'Mauser sword' item being an excellent case in point. I share the same passion for preserving not only the history of the weapons we study, but the weapons themselves ,and always dread those who carry out overcleanings, excessive 'restorations' and of course fakes and fraudulent composites. This creation was none of these. In my opinion, the creation that Antonio presented was a beautiful piece of art, not intended as a reproduction nor as a representative example, and I very much appreciated seeing it. I realize how passionately those here that are involved in these weapons perceive them, and am constantly amazed at the knowledge on them that is shared here, but cannot see how this creation could be construed as anything but art. Best regards, Jim

9th September 2007, 06:40 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Its art Jim but not as we know it. at last. There is a big industry, those art print shops in every big town that sell art for people who do not like art.