A Kris-Tanto or hybridation as an answer

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

AC, You sure cross a lot of boundaries! I see that "Paolo is from the Philippines and he is working in Manila." I would be quite interested in responses from his countrymen.

As a collector of Japanese and Philippine weaponry, I also like the more traditional approaches to these pieces and must agree with Lew.

Yeah Bill,

Nuff said

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Yeah Bill,

I love to be politically incorrect. I understand that you choose to be close to traditional approaches. It makes one feel safer, huh

Other folks see things differently though, and even if they didn't I would not change my path.

Antonio,

It has nothing to do with safety. It has to do with aesthetics. You like the way your piece looks and so do some of your friends. I have no problem with that.

Your sense of aesthetics is different from mine. Has nothing to do with politically correct or incorrect.

You asked for opinions. Lew and I gave you ours --- Politely.

If you want to carry this matter further in private email, I will be happy to respond, but I am not carrying this any further in a public forum.

Best regards,
Bill

[Lew]

Antonio

I collected and designed custom knives for 20 years before I became interested in antique ethnographic weapons and to me your knife though beautifully made and pleasing to the eye is in my opinion a custom knife. I have many books with that show similar experiments in melding knife designs from two different cultures and these are considered fantasy pieces because historically they would never have been made in that way. I thought forum's purpose was to explore other cultures through their weapons which are unique to each individual groups ethnic and historical indentity. Your piece starts to blurr the lines in my opinion thats all.

Lew

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Antonio

I collected and designed custom knives for 20 years before I became interested in antique ethnograhic weapons and to me your knife though beautifully made and pleasing to the eye is in my opinion a custom knife. I have many books with that show similar experiments in melding knife designs from two different cultures and these are considered fantasy pieces because historically they would never have been made in that way. I thought forum's purpose was to explore other cultures through their weapons which are unique to each individual groups enthnic and historical indentity. Your piece starts to blurr the lines in my opinion thats all.

Lew

Thank you for your opinion Lew.
It is obviously a custom knife
I never use books to design anything so I am not conditioned by any other influence.
I am now enlightened that I should have not posted in this forum.
May I ask our kind moderators to please delete my post?
I'm supposed to have blurred the lines of ethnic groups and their historical identity. My bad I suppose

[David]

You might be right Antonio, but i'm sorry that you think this is not the right place to post this creation. It is here though, so i will comment on it. While i am not as a rule opposed to such hybrids i don't think this one works for me. Of course the first question that crosses my mind in a case such as this is why do such a thing in the first place? In my mind to give it validity it must have a logical purpose. While i can see that this is a masterfully created piece it doesn't really speak to me on any level, nor do i understand the desire to create such a thing and unlike some other opinions i don't find it particularly asthetically pleasing either. Placing baca-baca on this piece seems a rather superficial way to imply Moro cultural identity. And the second one that pierces the blade just disturbs me for some reason. It also seems unnecessary for your purpose since many Moro kris have only one.
I am sorry that you didn't receive the approval that you were hoping for and received on other forums for this piece. I think we do tend to be a group of purists at heart here. I am not sure that means this should never have been posted here and i do hope that the Mods don't take your advice to delete this post. Opinions are just that and should be aired freely. And if you think about it, it is probably useful information for you to know how ethnographic collectors might respond to such a creation.
I would also like to comment that i think it best not to go back to a post and delete passages that another forumite has already responded to unless it is obvious that it is truly offensive and not just a regretful wording. It only adds confusion and breaks continuity.

[Rick]

I would suggest that Antonio's piece does belong here as it was manufactured by hand and is, even if a fusion of two differing cultures, still falls under the definition of Ethnographic .

I always enjoy seeing the products of your fertile imagination Antonio.

[Tim Simmons]

Antonio and his chum are working to very high standards. There are obvious problems of mixing styles without a living reason to do so. This is a good example showing how quality workmanship and design can be far removed from art. I think to see hybridisation as art look no further than the Mauser inspired sword, it speaks to you very sympathetically.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Rick

I would suggest that Antonio's piece does belong here as it was manufactured by hand and is, even if a fusion of two differing cultures, still falls under the definition of Ethnographic .

I always enjoy seeing the products of your fertile imagination Antonio.

Rick

This is a quote from our welcome page.

"Modern custom knives would qualify as an artifact of our own "culture", but will not be considered here, as they are better represented elsewhere."

So even though the theme of the dagger is ethnograhic and was made in the Philippines by a native Philippino it is still a modern non traditional custom piece.

Lew

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by David

You might be right Antonio, but i'm sorry that you think this is not the right place to post this creation. It is here though, so i will comment on it. While i am not as a rule opposed to such hybrids i don't think this one works for me. Of course the first question that crosses my mind in a case such as this is why do such a thing in the first place? In my mind to give it validity it must have a logical purpose. While i can see that this is a masterfully created piece it doesn't really speak to me on any level, nor do i understand the desire to create such a thing and unlike some other opinions i don't find it particularly asthetically pleasing either. Placing baca-baca on this piece seems a rather superficial way to imply Moro cultural identity. And the second one that pierces the blade just disturbs me for some reason. It also seems unnecessary for your purpose since many Moro kris have only one.
I am sorry that you didn't receive the approval that you were hoping for and received on other forums for this piece. I think we do tend to be a group of purists at heart here. I am not sure that means this should never have been posted here and i do hope that the Mods don't take your advice to delete this post. Opinions are just that and should be aired freely. And if you think about it, it is probably useful information for you to know how ethnographic collectors might respond to such a creation.
I would also like to comment that i think it best not to go back to a post and delete passages that another forumite has already responded to unless it is obvious that it is truly offensive and not just a regretful wording. It only adds confusion and breaks continuity.

David,

This will be my last post on this thread and I will explain why.
I'm too old to seek applause. Some folks here do know me quite well and know I'm not interested in applause.

Secondly, I am not just interested in knives or swords specifically but in culture in general, and I have always understood what conservative stances meant. It opposes change, evolution, change.
The irony here is that most of the weapons under discussion, specially Kris and Keris, are themselves a product of cultural migrations or hybridization, and if you or anyone fail to accept that they must not evolve, you are failing, like the Classic Music lovers, who dismiss Jazz as a horrible collection of non-harmonical sounds. Fortunately there were people like Pavarotti that opened the stages they stepped in to Rock performers.

Being conservative or purist over something that is a product of cultural exchanges at ethnic level, is the same as refusing the richness of multi-ethnical Americans, which is an irony. Is as if one refused the way An Afro-American renders his way of being American, or a Latin-American, or an Italo-American, or a Sino-American. It's purely both ironical to deny the richness of diversity originated by immigrants from other continents!!!

Not being a native English speaker, I once was striken by a BBC programme called The History of English. It showed how English was rendered in different places of the world, from the UK to Australia and to places like Jamaica. In other words, it explained the richness of evolution acculturations.

I do love Jazz and I do like to hear a New Yorker say a man gotta do what he's gotta do and I love Brazilian Portuguese, or hear an Indian speak English, or the way an Angolan speaks Portuguese.

I don't want any legitimization for this thread here. I don't need excuses because I myself am a product of multi-ethnicity, from Portuguese to Jew, to Indian, Italian and Irish, and I live in the oldest 450 years outpost in the Far-East, and as a result of such multicultural place, I speak Portuguese, Cantonese, Mandarin, Spanish, Italian, French, a bit of Japanese, a bit of German, and I am open to more.

I seek to learn, and actually the self called purists here have reconfirmed what I already knew.

Lastly I would like to say I like a good discussion. And that does not mean agreeing. But what I see here is the denial of the essence of the roots of ethnical swords. What some here are actually saying to me is, stick to what exists and we do need a reason for those squeeky sounds you're making with this approach. What some of you are saying is, do not acknowledge the richness of ethnographical weapons by getting inspired by them and evolving.
Just stick on discussing what exists.

Sorry guys, I will not take your advise, I have abundantly proved by putting my money where my mouth is, that I am opened to all areas but I will continue my journey without looking back.
Thank you for your time.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Antonio,

It has nothing to do with safety. It has to do with aesthetics. You like the way your piece looks and so do some of your friends. I have no problem with that.

Your sense of aesthetics is different from mine. Has nothing to do with politically correct or incorrect.

You asked for opinions. Lew and I gave you ours --- Politely.

If you want to carry this matter further in private email, I will be happy to respond, but I am not carrying this any further in a public forum.

Best regards,
Bill

Bill,

I have removed my early posts because I see you took it as offensive and my intention was not. I think we have a difference of cultures, and while I can speak English it doesn't make me a knowledgeable person in terms of specific culture. For me a dialogue can and should even harbour different views.
If I offended you, my public apologies.

Best,
Antonio