Fabulous Mausers 98 inspired sword

Andrew · 6th September 2007, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

I hate to say it Lee, but, if this gets figured out it should replace the Takouba in the viking sword logo

. Ethnographic weapons don't get any better than this one.
Well done Tim!
Jeff

Blasphemy!

Berkley · 6th September 2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

What is the weapon illustrated just above this one ? That too has a pretty interesting scabbard, and the beaked hilt is unusual. Looks like latter 19th century Mexican knives from Northern Mexico.

The hilt also looks like a stylized representation of a M1871 Mauser sword bayonet.

katana · 6th September 2007, 03:51 PM

Well done Tim....your winning bid matched my maximum so I never even got to be in the bidders list. After seeing your pictures ..I've been kicking myself for not bidding more. Excellent item,

it may be a good course of action to contact the Leeds Armoury. I seem to remember seeing a similar example in their collection (shown on TV) I tried to search their site prior to the auction but, there were problems on their web pages. If I had obtained the info I required I would certainly have put up a better 'fight' at auction.

OUCH !!! Just kicked myself .....again

Jim McDougall · 6th September 2007, 03:58 PM

Nicely done Berk!!! That looks like exactly what it is!
Tim where did that piece come from? Was it already in your collection?
It looks like Mauser may have had a native edged weapons manufacturing branch in South Central Africa!
Best Regards,
Jim

katana · 7th September 2007, 01:04 PM

Are we sure this is a representation of a German Rifle? The French Lebel 8mm model of 1886 is also very similar. Issued to the Foriegn Legion it could indicate North Africa. French Indo China could be a possibility, the sword does seem to have Asian characteristics

I would assume that the 'deception' of the sword being a rifle would only be effective if it was seen from distance...suggesting open spaces such as deserts etc. The 'enemy' would need to see the 'rifle' to be decieved in believing that you had 'fire power' which you do not actually have.

Tim Simmons · 7th September 2007, 04:57 PM

Very good point David, the Asian origin has been in my mind. I am happy to rule out North Africa as there is a strong history of gun making and trading there. Large parts of East Africa are desert, semi desert, savanna and grasslands so the distant viewing would figure there too. What makes me think it is from E Africa is that many peoples encountered by the Germans had not seen white people before and must have been in awe of there weapons. There may have been some use as a dummy but personally I tend to feel the likeness is more totemic and in a way similar to the mind set of South Seas cargo cults. There is also the similarity of styles and construction and the wood shown all seem to clearly African. It would be fantastic if other examples along these lines were to come out of the wood work but I doubt they will. I will more than happy to eat my words.

spiral · 7th September 2007, 07:21 PM

What a fascinating piece Tim , i am fairly sure, from the figure, colour & growth pattern that the grip is African Blackwood {A form of rosewood not ebony,} Its mostly seen from Ethiopia down to South Africa, especialy around Tanzania & Mozambeque. {Although it does occur in other African zones in smaller quantities.}

its black heart is a very sought after timber, harder & more resiliant than the many types of ebony.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 7th September 2007, 07:44 PM

Those are excellent observations David, and well placed points. It is always good to see well thought out suggestions and ideas in evaluating the possible provenance and identification of weapons, especially something as unusual as this.
I am inclined to agree with Tim, and am glad he agrees with my suggestions on the possible totemic or symbolic value of this piece. The note on the South Seas cargo cults is well placed, though it does seem amazing that there were tribal groups in Africa this late that had not encountered white explorers. The trade routes and exploration throughout the latter 19th century became more intensive later, but of course it is well known that these African regions still brought the sobriquet 'the dark continent' as so much of the interior was unexplored.
I do think that power symbolism may have been the root of the design of the mounts on this weapon, whether tribal emulation of the understandable fearful guns they experienced with the exposure to Europeans, or even by an adventuresome guide or warrior associated with exploration or trade parties.
In just looking at the effective appearance of this weapon it rather brings to mind the type of altered guns seen in movies such as the sawed off shotguns and holstered rifles that often provided rather dramatic effect in the movies I previously mentioned. In even further retrospect I think of the large ring lever on the guns of "The Rifleman" and Steve McQueens sawed off Winchester (I believe) in "Wanted Dead or Alive". Interestingly such effect has often been employed in so many weapon forms in movies over the years it does no seem at all surprising to think of the same psychological effect being used in the tribal setting as it appeals directly to human nature and senses.

I recall in discussions years ago involving the crocodile mounts on kaskara and some other weapon forms in the Sudan. I suggested that these were quite possibly applied to provide a fearful image to the holder of the weapon, in the totemic sense that he held the power of the crocodile in this case. While there were many suggestions to the contrary that insisted these were simply dramatically stylized pieces made to impress tourists, I felt that this was not the case. Since the practice of slaving was of course well known in the southern Sudan , and incursions further south into regions even as far as those we are considering here, the much feared crocodile would add a very feared image for the individual wearing it.
I just have added this instance to support the concept of what Tim and I have suggested concerning the purpose of the image projected.

An ethnographic weapon that brings forth this much thought and discussion is indeed a treasure! and I hope others will join in as well ! I look forward to more thoughts on the hilt also, what other weapons might have influenced the shape of the mounts?

Tim, can you tell us more on that bayonet looking item posted with this?

Best regards,
Jim

6th September 2007, 03:51 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Well done Tim....your winning bid matched my maximum so I never even got to be in the bidders list. After seeing your pictures ..I've been kicking myself for not bidding more. Excellent item, it may be a good course of action to contact the Leeds Armoury. I seem to remember seeing a similar example in their collection (shown on TV) I tried to search their site prior to the auction but, there were problems on their web pages. If I had obtained the info I required I would certainly have put up a better 'fight' at auction. OUCH !!! Just kicked myself .....again

6th September 2007, 03:58 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,596	Nicely done Berk!!! That looks like exactly what it is! Tim where did that piece come from? Was it already in your collection? It looks like Mauser may have had a native edged weapons manufacturing branch in South Central Africa! Best Regards, Jim

7th September 2007, 01:04 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Are we sure this is a representation of a German Rifle? The French Lebel 8mm model of 1886 is also very similar. Issued to the Foriegn Legion it could indicate North Africa. French Indo China could be a possibility, the sword does seem to have Asian characteristics I would assume that the 'deception' of the sword being a rifle would only be effective if it was seen from distance...suggesting open spaces such as deserts etc. The 'enemy' would need to see the 'rifle' to be decieved in believing that you had 'fire power' which you do not actually have.

7th September 2007, 04:57 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	Very good point David, the Asian origin has been in my mind. I am happy to rule out North Africa as there is a strong history of gun making and trading there. Large parts of East Africa are desert, semi desert, savanna and grasslands so the distant viewing would figure there too. What makes me think it is from E Africa is that many peoples encountered by the Germans had not seen white people before and must have been in awe of there weapons. There may have been some use as a dummy but personally I tend to feel the likeness is more totemic and in a way similar to the mind set of South Seas cargo cults. There is also the similarity of styles and construction and the wood shown all seem to clearly African. It would be fantastic if other examples along these lines were to come out of the wood work but I doubt they will. I will more than happy to eat my words.

7th September 2007, 07:21 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	What a fascinating piece Tim , i am fairly sure, from the figure, colour & growth pattern that the grip is African Blackwood {A form of rosewood not ebony,} Its mostly seen from Ethiopia down to South Africa, especialy around Tanzania & Mozambeque. {Although it does occur in other African zones in smaller quantities.} its black heart is a very sought after timber, harder & more resiliant than the many types of ebony. Spiral

7th September 2007, 07:44 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,596	Those are excellent observations David, and well placed points. It is always good to see well thought out suggestions and ideas in evaluating the possible provenance and identification of weapons, especially something as unusual as this. I am inclined to agree with Tim, and am glad he agrees with my suggestions on the possible totemic or symbolic value of this piece. The note on the South Seas cargo cults is well placed, though it does seem amazing that there were tribal groups in Africa this late that had not encountered white explorers. The trade routes and exploration throughout the latter 19th century became more intensive later, but of course it is well known that these African regions still brought the sobriquet 'the dark continent' as so much of the interior was unexplored. I do think that power symbolism may have been the root of the design of the mounts on this weapon, whether tribal emulation of the understandable fearful guns they experienced with the exposure to Europeans, or even by an adventuresome guide or warrior associated with exploration or trade parties. In just looking at the effective appearance of this weapon it rather brings to mind the type of altered guns seen in movies such as the sawed off shotguns and holstered rifles that often provided rather dramatic effect in the movies I previously mentioned. In even further retrospect I think of the large ring lever on the guns of "The Rifleman" and Steve McQueens sawed off Winchester (I believe) in "Wanted Dead or Alive". Interestingly such effect has often been employed in so many weapon forms in movies over the years it does no seem at all surprising to think of the same psychological effect being used in the tribal setting as it appeals directly to human nature and senses. I recall in discussions years ago involving the crocodile mounts on kaskara and some other weapon forms in the Sudan. I suggested that these were quite possibly applied to provide a fearful image to the holder of the weapon, in the totemic sense that he held the power of the crocodile in this case. While there were many suggestions to the contrary that insisted these were simply dramatically stylized pieces made to impress tourists, I felt that this was not the case. Since the practice of slaving was of course well known in the southern Sudan , and incursions further south into regions even as far as those we are considering here, the much feared crocodile would add a very feared image for the individual wearing it. I just have added this instance to support the concept of what Tim and I have suggested concerning the purpose of the image projected. An ethnographic weapon that brings forth this much thought and discussion is indeed a treasure! and I hope others will join in as well ! I look forward to more thoughts on the hilt also, what other weapons might have influenced the shape of the mounts? Tim, can you tell us more on that bayonet looking item posted with this? Best regards, Jim