SUASA Copper/Gold or Gold/Copper alloy

VANDOO · 5th September 2007, 08:07 PM

I HAD READ A FORMULA FOR IT SOMEWHERE A FEW YEARS AGO BUT UNFORTUNATELY DON'T REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS NOW OR WHERE I SAW IT.
IT USED OLD COINS AND GAVE THE DENOMINATINS OF THE GOLD COINS AND SILVER COINS AND THE NUMBERS TO BE MELTED DOWN TO FORM SWASSA. I THINK THE COINS WERE DUTCH, IT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE TO FIND OUT THE WEIGHT AND PURITY OF THE COINS USED AND THEN USE GOLD AND SILVER INSTEAD OF OLD COINS AS IT WAS DONE IN THE PAST WHEN THE COINS WERE READILY AVAILABLE. IF I RUN ACROSS IT IN THE FUTURE AGAIN I WILL LET YOU KNOW, PERHAPS SOMEONE ELSE MAY REMEMBER AS I DID SHARE THE INFO WITH SOME.GOOD LUCK

Tim Simmons · 5th September 2007, 08:13 PM

low quality really. http://www.jewelryexpert.com/articles/Pinchbeck.htm

David · 5th September 2007, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

low quality really. http://www.jewelryexpert.com/articles/Pinchbeck.htm

From what i can gather from this article "Pinchbeck" doesn't contain any real gold. This is not the case with suassa.

asomotif · 6th September 2007, 08:34 AM

thanks Michael for these acurate numbers !

I am not sure if Suassa should be considered cheap.
Surely gold is more expensive, but with the present copper (56%) prices...

I believe the japanese also use some similar alloys in decorating their tsuba's etc. any info on that?

Battara · 7th September 2007, 08:26 PM

Acutally it depends on the color wanted. VVV is correct for some swassa, others are different depending on if you want orange, red, white'ish, etc. When a friend and I made swassa several years ago, it was roughly 1/3 gold and 2/3 copper with some silver. Some even use zinc for a greenish color, though rare.

Here is an example of what I mean. The orange bands on the hilt are swassa and the orange bands on the scabbard are the ones we made. I did the rest of the scabbard work (the second one I ever made).

t_c · 8th September 2007, 03:54 AM

Here's a good list of Japanese alloys:
Japanese Alloys

asomotif · 10th September 2007, 08:51 AM

Hello Battara,

Nice Moro keris.
Do you have some close ups of the mountings ?

-----

TC,
thanks for the link to the alloys !

VVV · 5th September 2007, 08:16 PM

Willem,

It's 25% gold, 19% silver and 56% copper.

Michael

ThePepperSkull · 25th May 2011, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Willem,

It's 25% gold, 19% silver and 56% copper.

Michael

Very interesting. Does this recipe for suasa vary depending on region, or is this the standard for what we usually see?

A. G. Maisey · 25th May 2011, 06:11 AM

Suasa was made and used over a very wide area at a time when there was no stardardisation of anything across this area.

The component parts of suasa vary.

I have a Lombok or Bali suasa pendok that tests as 14ct.

I have a Palembang suasa pendok that tests as slightly less.

I have a mendak that tests as 10ct.

I have several other examples of suasa that have not been tested and that vary in colour from the ones I have had tested, and from each other.

Gavin Nugent · 25th May 2011, 08:14 AM

Another example as requested.

Gav

kai · 25th May 2011, 08:55 AM

Hello Gavin,

your example would have been referred to as gold, even if it were a fairly low carat alloy. Suasa is supposed to have that copper hue but contain enough gold to avoid getting patinated when handled regularly. Basically, any yellow gold alloy (including "pure" gold) would be considered gold while red gold would be suasa (often at the low end of the carat scale).

Regards,
Kai

Gavin Nugent · 25th May 2011, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gavin,

your example would have been referred to as gold, even if it were a fairly low carat alloy. Suasa is supposed to have that copper hue but contain enough gold to avoid getting patinated when handled regularly. Basically, any yellow gold alloy (including "pure" gold) would be considered gold while red gold would be suasa (often at the low end of the carat scale).

Regards,
Kai

Thanks Kai,

Although there is not the desirable hue as you note, the bottom image, there are 'rusty' copper 'flecks' seen in the image and found on ...what accounts for this? It is found on the bands too...just not enough melting of the alloys together?

This spear also has the same compound by the eye and it is think banding...the copper is in there...so is the gold.....

Gav

David · 26th May 2011, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gavin,

your example would have been referred to as gold, even if it were a fairly low carat alloy. Suasa is supposed to have that copper hue but contain enough gold to avoid getting patinated when handled regularly. Basically, any yellow gold alloy (including "pure" gold) would be considered gold while red gold would be suasa (often at the low end of the carat scale).

Regards,
Kai

I am afraid that your judgement may not be accurate based solely on this photograph Kai. If the image isn't properly white balances hues can rage wildly.

VVV · 25th May 2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Very interesting. Does this recipe for suasa vary depending on region, or is this the standard for what we usually see?

My recipe was for Aceh, the same region as Willem's rencong comes from.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 25th May 2011, 01:57 PM

Gav, gilding was very common in Jawa and Bali, and is still available in Jawa. I'm not talking gold plate, I'm talking fire gilding.I don't know about Sumatera.

Gavin Nugent · 25th May 2011, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gav, gilding was very common in Jawa and Bali, and is still available in Jawa. I'm not talking gold plate, I'm talking fire gilding.I don't know about Sumatera.

Indeed Alan, many things are gilded or painted in gold and other bright colours within Bali, Java I can not speak of.
Mainland SEA I see it is quite common in history although mostly around religion but very seldom have I seen other regions of SEA spoken of regarding gilding of any sort.
Any digression in from suasa to gilding from those more learned in the subjects.

Gav

A. G. Maisey · 25th May 2011, 02:48 PM

Gav, when gold is painted onto wood or other surfaces in Jawa and Bali, we refer to it as "prada" (pron. "prodo"). We use the same term for gold leaf applied over wood, whether it is the modern plastic gold, or traditional gold leaf.

I am not referring to this in my earlier post.

I am referring to fire gilding

http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nena...ilding-9-3.htm

7th September 2007, 08:26 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Acutally it depends on the color wanted. VVV is correct for some swassa, others are different depending on if you want orange, red, white'ish, etc. When a friend and I made swassa several years ago, it was roughly 1/3 gold and 2/3 copper with some silver. Some even use zinc for a greenish color, though rare. Here is an example of what I mean. The orange bands on the hilt are swassa and the orange bands on the scabbard are the ones we made. I did the rest of the scabbard work (the second one I ever made). Attached Images Last edited by Battara; 7th September 2007 at 08:40 PM.

25th May 2011, 08:14 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	another Another example as requested. Gav Attached Images

5th September 2007, 08:07 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAD READ A FORMULA FOR IT SOMEWHERE A FEW YEARS AGO BUT UNFORTUNATELY DON'T REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS NOW OR WHERE I SAW IT. IT USED OLD COINS AND GAVE THE DENOMINATINS OF THE GOLD COINS AND SILVER COINS AND THE NUMBERS TO BE MELTED DOWN TO FORM SWASSA. I THINK THE COINS WERE DUTCH, IT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE TO FIND OUT THE WEIGHT AND PURITY OF THE COINS USED AND THEN USE GOLD AND SILVER INSTEAD OF OLD COINS AS IT WAS DONE IN THE PAST WHEN THE COINS WERE READILY AVAILABLE. IF I RUN ACROSS IT IN THE FUTURE AGAIN I WILL LET YOU KNOW, PERHAPS SOMEONE ELSE MAY REMEMBER AS I DID SHARE THE INFO WITH SOME.GOOD LUCK

5th September 2007, 08:13 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	low quality really. http://www.jewelryexpert.com/articles/Pinchbeck.htm

6th September 2007, 08:34 AM	#4
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	thanks Michael for these acurate numbers ! I am not sure if Suassa should be considered cheap. Surely gold is more expensive, but with the present copper (56%) prices... I believe the japanese also use some similar alloys in decorating their tsuba's etc. any info on that?

8th September 2007, 03:54 AM	#6
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Here's a good list of Japanese alloys: Japanese Alloys

10th September 2007, 08:51 AM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Hello Battara, Nice Moro keris. Do you have some close ups of the mountings ? ----- TC, thanks for the link to the alloys !

5th September 2007, 08:16 PM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Willem, It's 25% gold, 19% silver and 56% copper. Michael

25th May 2011, 06:11 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Suasa was made and used over a very wide area at a time when there was no stardardisation of anything across this area. The component parts of suasa vary. I have a Lombok or Bali suasa pendok that tests as 14ct. I have a Palembang suasa pendok that tests as slightly less. I have a mendak that tests as 10ct. I have several other examples of suasa that have not been tested and that vary in colour from the ones I have had tested, and from each other.

25th May 2011, 08:55 AM	#12
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Gavin, your example would have been referred to as gold, even if it were a fairly low carat alloy. Suasa is supposed to have that copper hue but contain enough gold to avoid getting patinated when handled regularly. Basically, any yellow gold alloy (including "pure" gold) would be considered gold while red gold would be suasa (often at the low end of the carat scale). Regards, Kai

25th May 2011, 01:57 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Gav, gilding was very common in Jawa and Bali, and is still available in Jawa. I'm not talking gold plate, I'm talking fire gilding.I don't know about Sumatera.

25th May 2011, 02:48 PM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Gav, when gold is painted onto wood or other surfaces in Jawa and Bali, we refer to it as "prada" (pron. "prodo"). We use the same term for gold leaf applied over wood, whether it is the modern plastic gold, or traditional gold leaf. I am not referring to this in my earlier post. I am referring to fire gilding http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nena...ilding-9-3.htm