Grandfather's Kris...

Nathaniel · 3rd September 2007, 03:48 AM

Here are some more views of the handle

Nathaniel · 3rd September 2007, 07:02 PM

So the handle is a more stylized Jawa Deman, ...can anyone please then post some different pictures handles with Jawa Deman??????

Nathaniel · 3rd September 2007, 07:30 PM

David...not that it's any big deal, but just to let you know the blade is at least coated silver....pewter has a different cast..more grayish...

It's not quite a well dressed souvenir, but as stated a dress/ceremonial piece...as Alam Shah questioned if this was from an Selangor official's and it's Selangor coat of arms is probably as far as you are going to get as any cultural significance....

The style tells us something about maybe more modern interpretations...or is it really..several more functional pieces can be seen with more abstract geometric lines... many people have a tendency to be attracted to the work of more realistic versus stylized/ abstract.

Yet, I remember my college art teacher once remarked that art/style should not always be appreciated for how closely it imitates reality, but rather when it presents a new interpretation of reality beyond a simple reflection...yet on the same note I must admit I'm not a fan of the more abstract...

The significance of it's materials...luxury...just like several other court/ official/ artistic pieces you see in many cultures...these are often the best preserved and what you will find in museums...often they where not meant really for function, but to be appreciated for it's beauty/ to show the wealth/ tastes of the owner...several of the Kreis in general are quite fancy/decorative...take a look at several of the pictures of handles you and others use as icons on the forum...maybe these where in fact the Armani of their day?

It is just my simple observation that most of the Kreis I see people showing off and willing to pay high $$$ for are in fact more of the Armani suits of days past...

I offer these comments only as food for thought to all...not as a challenging response to David.

I'm very thankful to everyone for their contribution to this thread. I have learned a good deal.

Rick · 3rd September 2007, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

So the handle is a more stylized Jawa Deman, ...can anyone please then post some different pictures handles with Jawa Deman??????

Hi Nathaniel,
Here's an example of something along the same lines of your hilt.

This one is Palembang style decorated and is from Sumatra.
It is a humble piece; nothing fancy or expensive.

Variations on this form abound throughout the area .
At some point this form morphs into a Garuda, or Sea Bird motif in the Celebes.

Hope this helps .

David · 4th September 2007, 03:56 AM

Nathanial, i think you may have misunderstood my line of questioning in regards to this piece.
Firstly all of this style of keris hilts are abstractions to one degree or another. My comments on your hilt are merely that it is an exacting form which i have not seen before (no big surprise) and that i find the your form to be more geometric in form with less organic lines that i have seen time and again in this type of hilt. Is it a more "modern" interpretation? Who knows. Below is my meager example, also in elephant ivory.

As for the blade, ceremonial keris are quite common. That is to say, keris that are designed with the sole purpose of serving some sort of ceremonial purpose. Yet in my experience these blades are usually still made in the same traditional process of layered steel and iron. AFAIK, a well made blade in these materials is a "luxury" in this culture, as much if not more so than a blade made of silver would be.
"The significance of it's materials...luxury...just like several other court/ official/ artistic pieces you see in many cultures...these are often the best preserved and what you will find in museums...often they where not meant really for function, but to be appreciated for it's beauty/ to show the wealth/ tastes of the owner...several of the Kreis in general are quite fancy/decorative...take a look at several of the pictures of handles you and others use as icons on the forum...maybe these where in fact the Armani of their day?"
I think you need to have a good look at what is really considered a beautiful keris blade, what is "appreciated for it's beauty to show wealth and tastes of the owner" within this culture. I think it would be unfair to compare this with what you see in other cultures because it just isn't the same.
Please understand that i am not doubting that this keris doesn't have some kind of ceremonial purpose within the context of Malay society, but i just don't know what that purpose is. From my limited experience a blade of traditional material is usually the first choice for both weapons meant for fighting as well as the ceremonial ones. I am unaware of the use of silver blades being used in any traditional context, ceremonial or otherwise. I have asked about this and am still waiting to be enlightened by one of our more knowledgable members on keris from the Peninsula.
As for the Armani suit, there is nothing wrong with that. Usually the dress should equally the quailty of the blade it holds. Often you will find somewhat over dressed keris, gussied up to encourage sales to inexperienced collectors. Sadly some folks fall for the glamor of such a presentation. But also it takes a discriminating eye to recognize the sublte excellence and beauty in keris of more restrained presentation and the perfection that can be found in the deceptively simplist of keris forms. Often enough those understated keris are deserving of their "Armani suits".

PenangsangII · 4th September 2007, 05:27 AM

The keris in question is neither ceremonial nor functional. It's a souvenir keris, normally produced in a bulk to commemorate certain events. Quite nice & expensive dress no doubt....

Nathaniel · 4th September 2007, 07:05 AM

Nice pictures...thank you for sharing that and continuing to share your thoughts

David · 4th September 2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The keris in question is neither ceremonial nor functional. It's a souvenir keris, normally produced in a bulk to commemorate certain events. Quite nice & expensive dress no doubt....

This was my suspicion as well, though i don't know enough about the history to say what event it commemorates. Anyone have any ideas given the suspected age.
As such i am more inclined to refer to this blade as a "keris-like" object rather than an actual keris. Please understand that i don't say this to be harsh. There are many viewers of this forum with very little experience with keris. Antonio looks at this piece and remarks, "...such a beautiful piece". I will agree that as a object onto itself it does have beauty. But i fear that some might interpret such comments to mean that this is a "good" keris. A "good" keris it is not.
I am more of the mind that this is not a common souvenir piece, but perhaps some kind of presentation gift.

I am still a bit confused by Shahrial's initial response connecting this to a particular office. I would think that would be served by a "real" keris blade.

3rd September 2007, 07:02 PM	#2
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	So the handle is a more stylized Jawa Deman, ...can anyone please then post some different pictures handles with Jawa Deman?????? Last edited by Nathaniel; 3rd September 2007 at 08:15 PM.

3rd September 2007, 07:30 PM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	David...not that it's any big deal, but just to let you know the blade is at least coated silver....pewter has a different cast..more grayish... It's not quite a well dressed souvenir, but as stated a dress/ceremonial piece...as Alam Shah questioned if this was from an Selangor official's and it's Selangor coat of arms is probably as far as you are going to get as any cultural significance.... The style tells us something about maybe more modern interpretations...or is it really..several more functional pieces can be seen with more abstract geometric lines... many people have a tendency to be attracted to the work of more realistic versus stylized/ abstract. Yet, I remember my college art teacher once remarked that art/style should not always be appreciated for how closely it imitates reality, but rather when it presents a new interpretation of reality beyond a simple reflection...yet on the same note I must admit I'm not a fan of the more abstract... The significance of it's materials...luxury...just like several other court/ official/ artistic pieces you see in many cultures...these are often the best preserved and what you will find in museums...often they where not meant really for function, but to be appreciated for it's beauty/ to show the wealth/ tastes of the owner...several of the Kreis in general are quite fancy/decorative...take a look at several of the pictures of handles you and others use as icons on the forum...maybe these where in fact the Armani of their day? It is just my simple observation that most of the Kreis I see people showing off and willing to pay high $$$ for are in fact more of the Armani suits of days past... I offer these comments only as food for thought to all...not as a challenging response to David. I'm very thankful to everyone for their contribution to this thread. I have learned a good deal. Last edited by Nathaniel; 3rd September 2007 at 08:14 PM.

4th September 2007, 03:56 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Nathanial, i think you may have misunderstood my line of questioning in regards to this piece. Firstly all of this style of keris hilts are abstractions to one degree or another. My comments on your hilt are merely that it is an exacting form which i have not seen before (no big surprise) and that i find the your form to be more geometric in form with less organic lines that i have seen time and again in this type of hilt. Is it a more "modern" interpretation? Who knows. Below is my meager example, also in elephant ivory. As for the blade, ceremonial keris are quite common. That is to say, keris that are designed with the sole purpose of serving some sort of ceremonial purpose. Yet in my experience these blades are usually still made in the same traditional process of layered steel and iron. AFAIK, a well made blade in these materials is a "luxury" in this culture, as much if not more so than a blade made of silver would be. "The significance of it's materials...luxury...just like several other court/ official/ artistic pieces you see in many cultures...these are often the best preserved and what you will find in museums...often they where not meant really for function, but to be appreciated for it's beauty/ to show the wealth/ tastes of the owner...several of the Kreis in general are quite fancy/decorative...take a look at several of the pictures of handles you and others use as icons on the forum...maybe these where in fact the Armani of their day?" I think you need to have a good look at what is really considered a beautiful keris blade, what is "appreciated for it's beauty to show wealth and tastes of the owner" within this culture. I think it would be unfair to compare this with what you see in other cultures because it just isn't the same. Please understand that i am not doubting that this keris doesn't have some kind of ceremonial purpose within the context of Malay society, but i just don't know what that purpose is. From my limited experience a blade of traditional material is usually the first choice for both weapons meant for fighting as well as the ceremonial ones. I am unaware of the use of silver blades being used in any traditional context, ceremonial or otherwise. I have asked about this and am still waiting to be enlightened by one of our more knowledgable members on keris from the Peninsula. As for the Armani suit, there is nothing wrong with that. Usually the dress should equally the quailty of the blade it holds. Often you will find somewhat over dressed keris, gussied up to encourage sales to inexperienced collectors. Sadly some folks fall for the glamor of such a presentation. But also it takes a discriminating eye to recognize the sublte excellence and beauty in keris of more restrained presentation and the perfection that can be found in the deceptively simplist of keris forms. Often enough those understated keris are deserving of their "Armani suits". Attached Images Last edited by David; 4th September 2007 at 04:25 AM.

4th September 2007, 07:05 AM	#7
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Nice pictures...thank you for sharing that and continuing to share your thoughts Last edited by Nathaniel; 4th September 2007 at 01:31 PM.

3rd September 2007, 03:48 AM	#1
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Here are some more views of the handle

4th September 2007, 05:27 AM	#6
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	The keris in question is neither ceremonial nor functional. It's a souvenir keris, normally produced in a bulk to commemorate certain events. Quite nice & expensive dress no doubt....