Club from the Philippines

josh stout · 29th August 2007, 01:20 AM

I am pretty sure the club is made from some sort of rattan. Young rattan has spikes that look almost exactly like those on the club.
Josh

edit:
OK maybe not as the broken bit does not look like rattan at all. Still, as mentioned, it has a very familiar look.

CourseEight · 29th August 2007, 02:03 AM

It's the wrong part of the world, but the spikes look like that of a Floss Silk tree:

http://pizzabytheslice.com/photos/im..._thorns_15.jpg

http://mgonline.com/chorisia.html

I've a few around my house and the resemblence seems close. Unfortunately they are tropical from South America. Maybe a relative of some kind lives in the Philippines? That is of course unless the spikes are carved, then it's just a coincidence...

--Radleigh

Nonoy Tan · 29th August 2007, 11:33 AM

There is reference to clubs being used in the Philippines ("The collection of primitive weapons and armor of the Philippine islands in the United States National museum" by Herbert Krieger 1926). However, there is no image of a club therein; and I found no club amongst the specimens kept at the Smithsonian Institution. Thus, information has been elusive.

Here is a close-up pic
[IMG]

Tim Simmons · 29th August 2007, 05:36 PM

Perhaps it is from South America. It must be the first piece I have seen on this forum not including colonists work. It would not get a patina like that without use. What size is it? Some "Oceanic" clubs are sometimes fish clubs or priest, for bigger fish than trout or salmon. I believe the club is/was the main weapon of Brazilian native people? I did see an old metal tipped spear, 18th century, in a special exhibition at BM a few years ago. Wish I had bought the catalogue now. Trade steel obviously. I had no idea of the sophistcation of the native cities in the Amazon basin.

fearn · 29th August 2007, 06:25 PM

Hi All,

As a botanist, I'm pretty that the spikes are natural, and I'm pretty sure it's not from the silk floss tree. There's a simple reason for this: silk floss wood is quite light. I've picked up a trunk that was two meters long and 10 cm wide, and it only weighed a kilo or two. While the spikes on silk trunks are impressive, the wood behind them isn't.

Now, I'm not sure what plant it's from, but my first guess was rattan as well. A cross-sectional view of the butt end might help, as it will show whether the club was made from a palm or a broadleaf tree.

F

VANDOO · 29th August 2007, 08:19 PM

I WILL AGREE THE SPIKES ARE NATURAL TO THE PLANT, THE TYPES OF RATTAN I AM FAMILIAR WITH ARE ALSO LIGHT WEIGHT AND WOULD MAKE A POOR CLUB.
A CLUB SHOULD BE HARD AND HAVE ENOUGH WEIGHT TO BREAK SKULLS AND BONES OR AT LEAST KNOCK OUT AN ENEMY. THE PRESENCE OF SPINES WOULD MAKE A WEAPON LOOK MORE DANGEROUS BUT IF IT WAS TOO LIGHT TO PREFORM A CLUBS MAIN FUNCTIONS IT WOULD JUST MAKE MORE BLOOD BUT BE LESS EFFECIENT.
THERE ARE MANY FORMS OF PLANTS WITH THORNS ALL OVER THE WORLD AS PLANTS DEVELOPED SHARP POINTY SPINES AND SHARP EDGES FOR PROTECTION LONG BEFORE MANKIND CAME ALONG. PLANTS HAVE PROVIDED WEAPONS AND TOOLS SINCE ANCIENT TIMES WE HAVE USED THE THORNS,SPINES AND POISONS IN MOST SOCIETYS.

THE QUESTION WOULD BE IS THE PHILIPPINE CLUB HARD AND HEAVY ENOUGH OR ARE THE SPINES NATURALLY POSINOUS?

CourseEight · 29th August 2007, 08:50 PM

According to Wikipedia, the wood density of a floss silk is 0.27 g/cm^3. Though no dimensions are given, figuring the club to be about 1 m long and 5 cm in diameter based on the pictures, and figuring it to be a cylinder, would give it a weight of 0.27*100*2.5^2*pi = 530 g, agreeing with fearn rather light for a club, yes? Of course, if poison is used all bets are off, and if Tim's suggestion that it may be South American is true, the natives there do certainly use poisons on their darts. Of course, they do in the Phillipines too I think. Dimensions, weight, and a picture of the cross section WOULD certainly help. I was unable to find a wood density for young spiny rattan...

29th August 2007, 11:33 AM	#3
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	There is reference to clubs being used in the Philippines ("The collection of primitive weapons and armor of the Philippine islands in the United States National museum" by Herbert Krieger 1926). However, there is no image of a club therein; and I found no club amongst the specimens kept at the Smithsonian Institution. Thus, information has been elusive. Here is a close-up pic [IMG] Attached Images

29th August 2007, 01:20 AM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I am pretty sure the club is made from some sort of rattan. Young rattan has spikes that look almost exactly like those on the club. Josh edit: OK maybe not as the broken bit does not look like rattan at all. Still, as mentioned, it has a very familiar look.

29th August 2007, 02:03 AM	#2
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	It's the wrong part of the world, but the spikes look like that of a Floss Silk tree: http://pizzabytheslice.com/photos/im..._thorns_15.jpg http://mgonline.com/chorisia.html I've a few around my house and the resemblence seems close. Unfortunately they are tropical from South America. Maybe a relative of some kind lives in the Philippines? That is of course unless the spikes are carved, then it's just a coincidence... --Radleigh

29th August 2007, 05:36 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Perhaps it is from South America. It must be the first piece I have seen on this forum not including colonists work. It would not get a patina like that without use. What size is it? Some "Oceanic" clubs are sometimes fish clubs or priest, for bigger fish than trout or salmon. I believe the club is/was the main weapon of Brazilian native people? I did see an old metal tipped spear, 18th century, in a special exhibition at BM a few years ago. Wish I had bought the catalogue now. Trade steel obviously. I had no idea of the sophistcation of the native cities in the Amazon basin.

29th August 2007, 06:25 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, As a botanist, I'm pretty that the spikes are natural, and I'm pretty sure it's not from the silk floss tree. There's a simple reason for this: silk floss wood is quite light. I've picked up a trunk that was two meters long and 10 cm wide, and it only weighed a kilo or two. While the spikes on silk trunks are impressive, the wood behind them isn't. Now, I'm not sure what plant it's from, but my first guess was rattan as well. A cross-sectional view of the butt end might help, as it will show whether the club was made from a palm or a broadleaf tree. F

29th August 2007, 08:19 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WILL AGREE THE SPIKES ARE NATURAL TO THE PLANT, THE TYPES OF RATTAN I AM FAMILIAR WITH ARE ALSO LIGHT WEIGHT AND WOULD MAKE A POOR CLUB. A CLUB SHOULD BE HARD AND HAVE ENOUGH WEIGHT TO BREAK SKULLS AND BONES OR AT LEAST KNOCK OUT AN ENEMY. THE PRESENCE OF SPINES WOULD MAKE A WEAPON LOOK MORE DANGEROUS BUT IF IT WAS TOO LIGHT TO PREFORM A CLUBS MAIN FUNCTIONS IT WOULD JUST MAKE MORE BLOOD BUT BE LESS EFFECIENT. THERE ARE MANY FORMS OF PLANTS WITH THORNS ALL OVER THE WORLD AS PLANTS DEVELOPED SHARP POINTY SPINES AND SHARP EDGES FOR PROTECTION LONG BEFORE MANKIND CAME ALONG. PLANTS HAVE PROVIDED WEAPONS AND TOOLS SINCE ANCIENT TIMES WE HAVE USED THE THORNS,SPINES AND POISONS IN MOST SOCIETYS. THE QUESTION WOULD BE IS THE PHILIPPINE CLUB HARD AND HEAVY ENOUGH OR ARE THE SPINES NATURALLY POSINOUS?

29th August 2007, 08:50 PM	#7
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	According to Wikipedia, the wood density of a floss silk is 0.27 g/cm^3. Though no dimensions are given, figuring the club to be about 1 m long and 5 cm in diameter based on the pictures, and figuring it to be a cylinder, would give it a weight of 0.271002.5^2*pi = 530 g, agreeing with fearn rather light for a club, yes? Of course, if poison is used all bets are off, and if Tim's suggestion that it may be South American is true, the natives there do certainly use poisons on their darts. Of course, they do in the Phillipines too I think. Dimensions, weight, and a picture of the cross section WOULD certainly help. I was unable to find a wood density for young spiny rattan...