How would you define this kris

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 11:21 PM

Michel, when you forge a keris blade, or any other blade for that matter, you do not forge the tang in to hold it whilst you forge the blade to shape.

With this blade, there are many possibilities, and I would prefer not to guess, that which I clearly cannot know.

With a keris you create a forging from which the keris can be be made, essentially by stock removal. The pesi is forged last of all, by various methods, but mostly by making a couple of cuts and then then forging the end of the bakalan down into a square peg that will become the pesi. Sometimes the pesi is not even forged---the end is left as an unformed lump, and the pesi is totally created by stock removal.

David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon.

The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world.

If some of the things that I sometimes write are less than obvious, it is because of my own lack of care in choice of phrasing to make those things obvious, or because of the inability of the reader to adequately understand the naunces which can occur in written English.

Because I am a charitable man I prefer to accept the blame for my own inadequacies in phrasing, rather than to point the finger at anybody's inadequacies in understanding.I would prefer to humble myself with an apology, rather than to use those horrible little emoticons.

PenangsangII · 24th August 2007, 03:16 AM

Wow...you guys are simply amazing, it's around 10.20 am here in Malaysia, and I have already learned so many things

.

Thanks guys and cheers.

David · 24th August 2007, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon.

Yes Alan, i understand it is not your style. It was merely a suggestion.
I wouldn't be too hard on yourself though. While the language may be beautiful and complete,with communication though just words, without the addition of voice inflection and body gestures that accompany conversion in person, nuances can easily be lost, especially amongst readers that are not native to the English language. Still it is amazing that we communicate at all btween countries, languages and cultures. All and all i'd say we are all doing a pretty good job of it.

Marcokeris · 24th August 2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world.

The primary reason

PenangsangII · 27th August 2007, 02:59 AM

I would say the past imperialism, couple with the fact that more books are written in English. Not to mention other mass media. BTW, English is quite a beautifyl language

Michel · 27th August 2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Michel, when you forge a keris blade, or any other blade for that matter, you do not forge the tang in to hold it whilst you forge the blade to shape.

With this blade, there are many possibilities, and I would prefer not to guess, that which I clearly cannot know.

With a keris you create a forging from which the keris can be be made, essentially by stock removal. The pesi is forged last of all, by various methods, but mostly by making a couple of cuts and then then forging the end of the bakalan down into a square peg that will become the pesi. Sometimes the pesi is not even forged---the end is left as an unformed lump, and the pesi is totally created by stock removal.

David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon.

The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world.

Thank you Alan, for this little lesson on keris forging. For the blades I have forged, I have utilized the system you mention: a couple of cut and then forging the end as required. On forging I am not going to dispute any points with you, you know so much more.
But on languages I beg to disagree on your statement: "It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world"

Many other languages have the same possibilities and are even better. German is quasi unbeatable in technical matters, French and Italian are very good on love and sentimental matters, Spanish is unbeaten in some special fields as bullfighting ! If you care to learn Inuit, you will discover un unbelievable number of words and expressions for ice, snow, wind and weather. In Mongolian they have created a complete vocabulary for all matters concerning horses and their environment. The local languages are the best in their own environment.
English is a very efficient, useful, versatile and beautiful language but it is not these qualifications that have made English the International Language. PenangsangII has identified one of the main reason: The past presence of the British around the world, but I think the second reason, that you are not going to like very much, is that English is an easy language to learn to speak poorly but that allows you to transmit an idea, a message. Look at all the Pidging English existing. To speak English like you do or other native English speakers do, is difficult for a non native speaker. But to speak Kitchen or Airport English is easy, we all do.
Alan, we all appreciate not only your English but your way of expressing yourself with humor and being facetious ! English was however not the subject of this thread ! But a question of classification to which I should not answer here but on the other thread: The Kigdom
Cheers !
Michel

David · 27th August 2007, 07:36 PM

Gentlemen, Michel makes a point that is absolutely correct - English is not the subject of this thread. For me it is clear that English has become something like the "international language" (for better or for worse) mostly due to the imperialistic nature of both England in the past and the USA in the present. I don't wish to argue this point nor see it debated here. Let's move on with matters that pertain to keris.

Michel · 27th August 2007, 09:09 PM

Hi David,
I am surprised by the following :
I just received a message from: ljones@vikingsword.com announcing a message from Karsten Sejr Jensen (the author of Krisdisk):
"You may find a this type of reflection pamor on a kris from Pattani on the Krisdisk chapter10 fig 194 and a kris with a rather similar type of blade with pichit markings in the Krisdisk chapter 8 Fig 118.
Kind regards
Sejr"
and giving the address :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...7&goto=newpost
When I went to the thread, the last message is yours.
I cannot say "thank you" to Sejr and the rest of the Warung Kopi members cannot enjoy this information.
Do you understand what is happening and can you help resolve the problem ? Or do I have to report it to someone else ?
Thanks
Michel

Kind regards

Sejrdress :

A. G. Maisey · 27th August 2007, 11:55 PM

David, I have noted your gentle reminder that this thread is not about the English language, and this post is not intended to continue discussion along lines already defined as unacceptable by our most respected Moderator.

However, it would be remiss of me if I did not add that any remarks I may make in respect of the English Language must be regarded as the remarks of one who is unabashedly prejudiced.

David · 28th August 2007, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, it would be remiss of me if I did not add that any remarks I may make in respect of the English Language must be regarded as the remarks of one who is unabashedly prejudiced.

Thanks Alan. Just for the record i am a bit of a fan of the English language myself and this is, afterall, an English language forum.

Now....onward please!

David · 28th August 2007, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

When I went to the thread, the last message is yours.
I cannot say "thank you" to Sejr and the rest of the Warung Kopi members cannot enjoy this information.
Do you understand what is happening and can you help resolve the problem ? Or do I have to report it to someone else ?

Michel, i am afraid i do not quite understand what you are asking here. I don't believe Mr. Jensen is a member here so he chose to contact you through the site owner Lee Jones. The link in that message brought you back to this thread because it is the thread Mr. Jensen is referring to. His book on CD, called Krisdisk, has received a bit of discussion on this forum and there is information to order it if you wish to here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4926
I do not own it yet, so i cannot comment on the information he has passed on to you. Perhaps others who own the disk can. At this point in time i am still of the opinion that your keris blade did not originate in Pattani, though this new information might change that opinion once i actually see it for myself.

27th August 2007, 09:09 PM	#8
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Krisdisk Hi David, I am surprised by the following : I just received a message from: ljones@vikingsword.com announcing a message from Karsten Sejr Jensen (the author of Krisdisk): "You may find a this type of reflection pamor on a kris from Pattani on the Krisdisk chapter10 fig 194 and a kris with a rather similar type of blade with pichit markings in the Krisdisk chapter 8 Fig 118. Kind regards Sejr" and giving the address : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...7&goto=newpost When I went to the thread, the last message is yours. I cannot say "thank you" to Sejr and the rest of the Warung Kopi members cannot enjoy this information. Do you understand what is happening and can you help resolve the problem ? Or do I have to report it to someone else ? Thanks Michel Kind regards Sejrdress :

23rd August 2007, 11:21 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Michel, when you forge a keris blade, or any other blade for that matter, you do not forge the tang in to hold it whilst you forge the blade to shape. With this blade, there are many possibilities, and I would prefer not to guess, that which I clearly cannot know. With a keris you create a forging from which the keris can be be made, essentially by stock removal. The pesi is forged last of all, by various methods, but mostly by making a couple of cuts and then then forging the end of the bakalan down into a square peg that will become the pesi. Sometimes the pesi is not even forged---the end is left as an unformed lump, and the pesi is totally created by stock removal. David, I'm sorry, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever use an emoticon. The English language is a beautiful and complete language. It is possible to express any idea in the English language, and this is the primary reason why the English language has now become the international language of the world. If some of the things that I sometimes write are less than obvious, it is because of my own lack of care in choice of phrasing to make those things obvious, or because of the inability of the reader to adequately understand the naunces which can occur in written English. Because I am a charitable man I prefer to accept the blame for my own inadequacies in phrasing, rather than to point the finger at anybody's inadequacies in understanding.I would prefer to humble myself with an apology, rather than to use those horrible little emoticons.

24th August 2007, 03:16 AM	#2
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Wow...you guys are simply amazing, it's around 10.20 am here in Malaysia, and I have already learned so many things . Thanks guys and cheers.

27th August 2007, 02:59 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I would say the past imperialism, couple with the fact that more books are written in English. Not to mention other mass media. BTW, English is quite a beautifyl language

27th August 2007, 07:36 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Gentlemen, Michel makes a point that is absolutely correct - English is not the subject of this thread. For me it is clear that English has become something like the "international language" (for better or for worse) mostly due to the imperialistic nature of both England in the past and the USA in the present. I don't wish to argue this point nor see it debated here. Let's move on with matters that pertain to keris.

27th August 2007, 11:55 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	David, I have noted your gentle reminder that this thread is not about the English language, and this post is not intended to continue discussion along lines already defined as unacceptable by our most respected Moderator. However, it would be remiss of me if I did not add that any remarks I may make in respect of the English Language must be regarded as the remarks of one who is unabashedly prejudiced.