Could this be Indonesian ? or Dutch?

katana · 23rd August 2007, 03:34 PM

Thank you Puff

something I had not considered

Going back to the balance of the dagger (photo below), as the antler has much less density than steel I can only assume that the 'tang' is quite 'large' and bulky to give the hilt enough weight to give this 'balance'. this suggests to me that the 'tang' is likely to be the remains of the steel shaft of a spearhead/butt

bearing in mind there is no weighted pommel to cause this.

I have found this on Therion Arms. The profile and size of the 'blade' is very similar (although this has pamor)

http://therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c419.html

.......

tom hyle · 1st September 2007, 02:10 AM

Can we have any sort of reasons why this is simply not a tombak? I'm not getting it. It very closely resembles tombak blades I've seen, without the drawn-on bolster (metuk?)
The thing that lookes European to me is the way the handle tapers smoothly right into the bolster.
No real thoughts on the two mars on the bolster, other than they look more to me like something partially forged out than later vice damage, etc?
Wow, Puff; Now I guess maybe my big spear is Siamese, after all........Jimpul, if you're here; take note

Likewise, budiak can be a tightly construed term. For instance, I am told if hte blade does not have a "panel" seperated by grooves etc. it is not technically a budiak. Budiak as such aside, do we have reason to think this cannot be a S. PI spear point?
Sounds like it might have a thick tang; possibly only the base of a long one that tapered.
The long-tanged spear is AFAIKnew a uniquely Oceanic E Asian technology? Now I must consided my Thai spear. Joy

David · 1st September 2007, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Can we have any sort of reasons why this is simply not a tombak? I'm not getting it. It very closely resembles tombak blades I've seen, without the drawn-on bolster (metuk?)

Tom, i think you answered your own question here. No metuk, not a tombak.

tom hyle · 1st September 2007, 04:15 PM

No, and for at least two reasons, each equally valid.
A/ if it is not a tombak per se with no metuk that goes a long way from saying there are not such spears, perhaps by a different name, in Indonesia, and {([I think this was B;.......])} in fact I have seen such blades, which had either lost, or never had a drawn on bolster (likewis for kris, BTW); so, as with what I'd already said about budiak, defining the term in a tightly constrained manner may be unhelpful in this particular discussion.
B? Snap, I forgot B, and your post isn';t showing in the bit I can read below. Maybe I somehow included B in A; I don't know; lost track of the thought.....

Additional: I have a reason it is not a budiak (broadly construed, etc.). Budiaks AFAIK have rhomboid (ie. diamond) cross section. This blade is midribbed, at least a the base, with a wide, semicircular rib, like a tombak.
It appears to be a tombak, mounted as a dagger. They often are.
Just for reference, the Thai(?) spear I mentioned is one of the leaf-bladed ones; one inch thick at the blade base, and with a 14" tang

love, spear, love

David · 1st September 2007, 04:48 PM

Tom, i didn't say it wasn't from Indonesia, just that it isn't a tombak. I never said that there aren't such spears there by a different name.
If you have a photo of a tombak without a metuk i would love to see it. I am always open to having my mind changed.

katana · 4th September 2007, 11:28 AM

Thank you Tom and David for the further posts

personally I am convinced that this is a re-mounted spear head and almost certainly of SEA origins, whether this was hilted (or even re-hilted) in Europe is another story. I have been unable to find a similar dagger described as European ....all the examples I have found (with very similar features to my own) have been attributed to SEA (some with pamor... most without)
The 'balance' and solid construction seems to suggest that this dagger was made with care for a purely functional use....to stab. I have considered this to be a 'hunting dirk' but it really does not fit the 'profile'.

I suppose, with weapons that are not readily easy to ID, you have to weigh up the comments of others, your own knowledge and the 'feel' of the weapon in question.....until proved otherwise.

kronckew · 5th September 2007, 01:25 PM

are we letting our own hopes and experiences keep us from thinking outside our 'box'?

some pretty letter openers out there. saw a nice victorian one with a stag grip on ebay recently

23rd August 2007, 03:34 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you Puff something I had not considered Going back to the balance of the dagger (photo below), as the antler has much less density than steel I can only assume that the 'tang' is quite 'large' and bulky to give the hilt enough weight to give this 'balance'. this suggests to me that the 'tang' is likely to be the remains of the steel shaft of a spearhead/butt bearing in mind there is no weighted pommel to cause this. I have found this on Therion Arms. The profile and size of the 'blade' is very similar (although this has pamor) http://therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c419.html ....... Attached Images Last edited by katana; 23rd August 2007 at 04:09 PM.

1st September 2007, 02:10 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Can we have any sort of reasons why this is simply not a tombak? I'm not getting it. It very closely resembles tombak blades I've seen, without the drawn-on bolster (metuk?) The thing that lookes European to me is the way the handle tapers smoothly right into the bolster. No real thoughts on the two mars on the bolster, other than they look more to me like something partially forged out than later vice damage, etc? Wow, Puff; Now I guess maybe my big spear is Siamese, after all........Jimpul, if you're here; take note Likewise, budiak can be a tightly construed term. For instance, I am told if hte blade does not have a "panel" seperated by grooves etc. it is not technically a budiak. Budiak as such aside, do we have reason to think this cannot be a S. PI spear point? Sounds like it might have a thick tang; possibly only the base of a long one that tapered. The long-tanged spear is AFAIKnew a uniquely Oceanic E Asian technology? Now I must consided my Thai spear. Joy

1st September 2007, 04:15 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	No, and for at least two reasons, each equally valid. A/ if it is not a tombak per se with no metuk that goes a long way from saying there are not such spears, perhaps by a different name, in Indonesia, and {([I think this was B;.......])} in fact I have seen such blades, which had either lost, or never had a drawn on bolster (likewis for kris, BTW); so, as with what I'd already said about budiak, defining the term in a tightly constrained manner may be unhelpful in this particular discussion. B? Snap, I forgot B, and your post isn';t showing in the bit I can read below. Maybe I somehow included B in A; I don't know; lost track of the thought..... Additional: I have a reason it is not a budiak (broadly construed, etc.). Budiaks AFAIK have rhomboid (ie. diamond) cross section. This blade is midribbed, at least a the base, with a wide, semicircular rib, like a tombak. It appears to be a tombak, mounted as a dagger. They often are. Just for reference, the Thai(?) spear I mentioned is one of the leaf-bladed ones; one inch thick at the blade base, and with a 14" tang love, spear, love

1st September 2007, 04:48 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Tom, i didn't say it wasn't from Indonesia, just that it isn't a tombak. I never said that there aren't such spears there by a different name. If you have a photo of a tombak without a metuk i would love to see it. I am always open to having my mind changed.

4th September 2007, 11:28 AM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you Tom and David for the further posts personally I am convinced that this is a re-mounted spear head and almost certainly of SEA origins, whether this was hilted (or even re-hilted) in Europe is another story. I have been unable to find a similar dagger described as European ....all the examples I have found (with very similar features to my own) have been attributed to SEA (some with pamor... most without) The 'balance' and solid construction seems to suggest that this dagger was made with care for a purely functional use....to stab. I have considered this to be a 'hunting dirk' but it really does not fit the 'profile'. I suppose, with weapons that are not readily easy to ID, you have to weigh up the comments of others, your own knowledge and the 'feel' of the weapon in question.....until proved otherwise.

5th September 2007, 01:25 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	are we letting our own hopes and experiences keep us from thinking outside our 'box'? some pretty letter openers out there. saw a nice victorian one with a stag grip on ebay recently