How would you define this kris

Raden Usman Djogja · 22nd August 2007, 09:51 PM

dear Kerislovers,

Simply, the uploaded image is very good and rare keris. It is like a high class sombro in Jawa. Ganja iras, seven tumbs, twisted with a hole at the end of pesi. Two things I still wanna know:

Firstly, may I see the pictures of this keris taken not from right or left side but from front and rear sides (from the shape sides). I would like to know whether this keris has 7 curves (luks). Some keris, even it is a straight keris, uniquely having luks (curves) if it is watched from front and rear of the shape sides.

Secondly, after stained with warangan, I hope this keris shows chatoyant and "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk". Excellent!!!

warm regards,
Usmen

David · 22nd August 2007, 10:22 PM

Usmen, do you think that in spite of the dress that this keris is of Jawa origin?
I agree that is a beautifully crafted keris.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 12:24 AM

Michel, I understand that as a French speaker you would prefer an Indonesian/French/Indonesian dictionary, however, the best dictionary for you would be, I believe, the two volume Echolls and Shadilly. Your English is more than adequate, and this dictionary is far and away the best in the marketplace. A new Indonesian/English dictionary appeared only a few months back, which has been promoted as the best ever, but it is expensive and I really don't think it is any better for practical use than Echolls and Shadilly.

I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from.

One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place.

A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye.

Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 01:15 AM

Incidentally, Michel, this keris has had its pesi added after the forging of the blade, hasn't it?

PenangsangII · 23rd August 2007, 03:18 AM

Sorry for the confusion everyone, and I think I need to further elaborate.

About the fighting keris statement, I said it was USUALLY, but not always. Even then, I think the keris is worthy enough for fighting. In Malay martial minds, keris is not to be clashed with or used to parry another weapon, even another keris. So, the fact that it only has 5 mm in thickness does not really matter.

The keris definitely has more than one metal composition, but the pamor metal is not contrasting type or in keris term pamor sanak. Sometimes only one type of metal used to forge a beko type keris.

Maybe the dapor jalak description is not the right choice of terminology for a Malay / Thai keris. If you look more closely, the middle section of the blade is a little wider compared to significant tapering from the base to the tip of say, a Bugis Sepukal, but not as wide to qualify as dapor jalak. Quite hard to explain, and I am sometimes confused myself

And Michel, Nik Rashidin is in a league of his own. I am just a simple collector of Malay / Indonesian weapons who started the hobby just couples of years ago.....

David · 23rd August 2007, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The keris definitely has more than one metal composition, but the pamor metal is not contrasting type or in keris term pamor sanak. Sometimes only one type of metal used to forge a beko type keris.

I am not sure how you can tell this from pictures of a blade that is obvious out of stain. I have my doubts that this would turn out to be pamor sanak after a warangan treatment.
As for whether this keris would be "worthy enough for fighting", that simply is not the issue. Any semi-sharp and pointy piece of metal could be a useful martial aid in a pinch. But this "weapon" was obviously designed to be talismanic, not martial as can be seen by it's picit (pejetan) features.
Michel, i have been wondering, does the blade have a tight fit in the sheath or has it been adapted for this blade?

PenangsangII · 23rd August 2007, 03:55 AM

David, I agree with you that the keris is not designed for fighting, though to certain degree, is worthy enough.

In Malay keris culture, keris is a part of a complete dress and a (side) weapon. Having talismanic properties in the keris is a bonus

Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine.

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from.

One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place.

A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye.

Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

I agree with Alan, this is not "sombro type keris",
Sombro type kerises are iras (one piece) type. And this is not. Things that people called "sombro type kerises" are usually very old and primitive. Almost no pamor or just "sanak" (not glitter). Please see these "sombro type" kerises (pictures) -- even they are probably made in different era. (Sorry, a little bit rusty. But someday, I'll clean them for you...). You may see the "spin" in the end of the pesi (tang) and also a hole or trace of hole in it.

The dhapur? Surely, this is a "brojol". The most simple dhapur in keris, with only one detail that shows the "gandhik" or front base of keris blade... The one with a hole in the gandhik, called "semar getak" or "semar betak" dhapur...

I agree with Alan too, about the stories on hole in sombro type kerises. In addition for the stories, some people in Java believed, that such "sombro type of kerises" were sold by Ni Mbok Sombro during the wandering (adventure) before becoming a well-known Pajajaran kingdom (West Java) empu. Ni Mbok Sombro, believed to sell these types of kerises in "pasar" (traditional markets, village market) as kitchen knives... This is just a peanut opinion, based on my simple knowledge on such kerises..

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 06:00 AM

Never heard the kitchen knife story. Bit too imaginative, I think. Blade with two edges in a kitchen? You'd need to be careful when you bit into a bit of tough meat that it wasn't your pembantu's finger.

ganjawulung · 23rd August 2007, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Never heard the kitchen knife story. Bit too imaginative, I think. Blade with two edges in a kitchen? You'd need to be careful when you bit into a bit of tough meat that it wasn't your pembantu's finger.

Maybe it is too imaginative. But at least your pembantu's finger will be safe. Just put the thumb in the gandhik, because not all the edge of the blade is sharp... Of course, put a wooden handle in the tang, before putting the thumb on the gandhik...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 08:24 AM

Ever seen the way women use a knife to cut big bits of meat and vegetables?

They place the cutting edge on the thing to be cut, then they put their other hand on the back of the knife and push down.

Two sharp edges = somebody with less than 10 fingers.

Wimmins don got no rispec fer nifes. Theys jes push the nife at the meat any ole how.

Raden Usman Djogja · 23rd August 2007, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Usmen, do you think that in spite of the dress that this keris is of Jawa origin?
I agree that is a beautifully crafted keris.

David,

It is hard to say whether this keris is Jawa origin or not. Perhaps, I still need to have a look from front and rear and if possible after stained.

Alan said that this keris is not a sombro. However, I think if it is finally not a sombro, the influence of sombro type is obvious. I hope this is not either sombro or Jawa origin. Why? Because it will be very interesting then, at least, now it can be used as an evidence of inter-relation amongst empu in south-east asia.

As Alan said, I also have a curiousity that the kind of steel of its pesi and its blade are different. It will be easier to know it after stained with arsenicum.

warm salam,

Usmen

22nd August 2007, 09:51 PM	#1
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	dear Kerislovers, Simply, the uploaded image is very good and rare keris. It is like a high class sombro in Jawa. Ganja iras, seven tumbs, twisted with a hole at the end of pesi. Two things I still wanna know: Firstly, may I see the pictures of this keris taken not from right or left side but from front and rear sides (from the shape sides). I would like to know whether this keris has 7 curves (luks). Some keris, even it is a straight keris, uniquely having luks (curves) if it is watched from front and rear of the shape sides. Secondly, after stained with warangan, I hope this keris shows chatoyant and "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk". Excellent!!! warm regards, Usmen

22nd August 2007, 10:22 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Usmen, do you think that in spite of the dress that this keris is of Jawa origin? I agree that is a beautifully crafted keris.

23rd August 2007, 12:24 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Michel, I understand that as a French speaker you would prefer an Indonesian/French/Indonesian dictionary, however, the best dictionary for you would be, I believe, the two volume Echolls and Shadilly. Your English is more than adequate, and this dictionary is far and away the best in the marketplace. A new Indonesian/English dictionary appeared only a few months back, which has been promoted as the best ever, but it is expensive and I really don't think it is any better for practical use than Echolls and Shadilly. I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from. One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place. A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye. Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

23rd August 2007, 01:15 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Incidentally, Michel, this keris has had its pesi added after the forging of the blade, hasn't it?

23rd August 2007, 03:18 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Sorry for the confusion everyone, and I think I need to further elaborate. About the fighting keris statement, I said it was USUALLY, but not always. Even then, I think the keris is worthy enough for fighting. In Malay martial minds, keris is not to be clashed with or used to parry another weapon, even another keris. So, the fact that it only has 5 mm in thickness does not really matter. The keris definitely has more than one metal composition, but the pamor metal is not contrasting type or in keris term pamor sanak. Sometimes only one type of metal used to forge a beko type keris. Maybe the dapor jalak description is not the right choice of terminology for a Malay / Thai keris. If you look more closely, the middle section of the blade is a little wider compared to significant tapering from the base to the tip of say, a Bugis Sepukal, but not as wide to qualify as dapor jalak. Quite hard to explain, and I am sometimes confused myself And Michel, Nik Rashidin is in a league of his own. I am just a simple collector of Malay / Indonesian weapons who started the hobby just couples of years ago.....

23rd August 2007, 03:55 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	David, I agree with you that the keris is not designed for fighting, though to certain degree, is worthy enough. In Malay keris culture, keris is a part of a complete dress and a (side) weapon. Having talismanic properties in the keris is a bonus Also, no Malay would use warangan to stain or bring out the pamor of a keris. The use lime or pine apple juice will do just fine.

23rd August 2007, 06:00 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Never heard the kitchen knife story. Bit too imaginative, I think. Blade with two edges in a kitchen? You'd need to be careful when you bit into a bit of tough meat that it wasn't your pembantu's finger.

23rd August 2007, 08:24 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Ever seen the way women use a knife to cut big bits of meat and vegetables? They place the cutting edge on the thing to be cut, then they put their other hand on the back of the knife and push down. Two sharp edges = somebody with less than 10 fingers. Wimmins don got no rispec fer nifes. Theys jes push the nife at the meat any ole how.