How would you define this kris

Michel · 21st August 2007, 11:39 AM

Thank you Alan,
For this translation of "nginden" in "chatoyant", definitively a French word that I understand. It is nice to know Indonesian when you collect krisses but my last attempt to learn Bahasa Malaysia (in 1994-1997) had such poor results that I concluded that it was a wasted effort. In my ignorance I thought that Indonesian was so close to Javanese that one could use one for the other and vice versa. I apologies for this error.

If I understand you correctly, the pamor Mlumah is built parallel to the core and the pamor Miring is built perpendicular to the core. The miring technique requires a sizable pile of layers (as wide as the kris blade), sandwiching the core of the blade and that before being filed to give the waving aspect. Difficult to explain but I think that I get it.

Thank you PenangsangII,
for your translation of the word "sepukal" in Malaysia.
A keris "Beko" is new for me. Is it a Malaysian word? and what does it means ? ? What does it relate to ? The shape ?
Kind regards
Michel

Sejr · 21st August 2007, 03:55 PM

You may find a this type of reflection pamor on a kris from Pattani on the Krisdisk chapter10 fig 194 and a kris with a rather similar type of blade with pichit markings in the Krisdisk chapter 8 Fig 118.

Kind regards

Sejr

A. G. Maisey · 21st August 2007, 11:25 PM

Michel, I am remarkably untalented in the area of language. I used to get marks as low as 9---out of 100---in my school French examinations. I would get that 9 for reading because my accent was apparently almost perfect, but all the rest of the language was a mystery to me. Later on I learnt to read French cycling magazines fairly well. What I needed was the motivation. I could see no use for wasting time on learning French, so I never gave it any time---until I decided I wanted to read the cycling magazines.

I had a similar experience when I started to learn Indonesian. I initially went to formal classes, language laboratories, etc, etc, etc. I got absolutely nowhere. So I designed my own program that involved extensive reading and writing in a vocabulary that was somewhat more adult than the brand of Indonesian taught in a classroom situation.This foundation was added to by live conversation when I was in Indonesia.

Believe me, it is not a difficult language to learn to a level where you can more or less understand a book, or carry on basic conversation.If all you need to do is read the captions in your book, you will handle that easily with the assistance of a dictionary.

Yes, your understanding of the difference between pamor mlumah and pamor miring is correct. The work involved in creating any pamor miring is multiples of that needed to create any pamor mlumah. Not only is the time and effort much greater to create pamor miring than it is to create pamor mlumah, but the level of skill required is also much greater.

PenangsangII · 22nd August 2007, 05:48 AM

Greetings to all keris lovers,

Michel, the term Beko comes from a leave called beko. The profile of a keris beko can be described as like any other sepukal dapur, but with certain characteristics:
1) Less protruding aring (ganja)
2) Dapur jalak (Javanese) at the middle of the blade
3) Rounded tip (compared to very narrow tip of Bugis Sepukal)
4) Overall mata / bilah is wider
5) Normally without contrasting pamor metal / or one metal type only
6) Jawa demam (peninsular / Pattani) style hilt
7) Sheath can be saribulan (Kelantan/Sumatra) or tebeng (Bugis / Pattani)

Keris beko originates from Kelantan, Northern Malaysia and Pattani, Southern Thailand. Often produced to function as fighting keris....

Michel · 22nd August 2007, 09:12 AM

Thanks you Alan,
You give me courage and motivation to go and purchase an Indonesian dictionary. So far I had downloaded an Indonesian-French dictionary on the web but have had very little success with it. The first word I wanted to understand was "antara" and I could not find any translation. I guess it means: "between" in the Title Keris Jawa, antara Mistic dan Nalar.
I will pursue my efforts with a good dictionary !

Thanks a lot PenangsangII,
for this very good description of the keris Beko. Many very interesting elements in your description. Your way of analyzing and "reading" a Keris, reminds me of Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain of Kota Bahru, he "read" kerisses as you can read a book, a thing one can do only with a very large keris culture.

Thanks again to both of you for sharing your culture about keris.

David · 22nd August 2007, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Greetings to all keris lovers,

Michel, the term Beko comes from a leave called beko. The profile of a keris beko can be described as like any other sepukal dapur, but with certain characteristics:
1) Less protruding aring (ganja)
2) Dapur jalak (Javanese) at the middle of the blade
3) Rounded tip (compared to very narrow tip of Bugis Sepukal)
4) Overall mata / bilah is wider
5) Normally without contrasting pamor metal / or one metal type only
6) Jawa demam (peninsular / Pattani) style hilt
7) Sheath can be saribulan (Kelantan/Sumatra) or tebeng (Bugis / Pattani)

Keris beko originates from Kelantan, Northern Malaysia and Pattani, Southern Thailand. Often produced to function as fighting keris....

Given this description i am confused as to why this blade would definitely be called keris beko. It certainly wasn't made to be a fighting blade, it definitely has a contrasting pamor and i am not so sure that the blade is particularly wide. Dimensions of the blade would be helpful.
Given the finger imprints (picit, pecetan), the hole in the pesi and the gold crescent and star i would venture that this is a purely talismanic blade. The hole might imply that it was never meant to have such dress, but was instead meant to hang in an auspicious place in the home.
BTW, just to avoid confusion in the future i believe it would be more correct to define "aring" as the tail end of the gonjo, not the entire gonjo itself.

Michel · 22nd August 2007, 04:33 PM

Hi David,
Interesting remarks you are making !
First the facts :
the blade is 4 cm wide at the star/crescent decoration level and 2 cm before the the end of the blade.
The length is 31.5 cm, blade only without peksi.
A partial analysis:
1) A fighting keris ? The blade is 5mm thick in its center under the ganja iras. does it qualify for a description of a fighting keris ? A little thin for me.
I have 2 fighting keris (at least I consider them as such) their blades are 7.5 mm just below the ganja and their length is 31 and 31.5 cm but sturdy blades.
2)Dapur Jalak . There again my ignorance is a problem. Fom Keris Jawa antara Mistic dans Nalar, page 116, the dapur Jalak seems to describe a strait blade with a clear center edge. I do not understand exactly what PenangsangII meant, I had the intention to dig a bit in my books to learn.
3) the hole in the peksi was not meant to hang the blade. What was explained to me was that these holes were rare and were for royal family only and were generally on short keris pajang (< 45 cm), the ultimate finish was to have the hole at the end of a twisted peksi !
4) the others points of PenangsangII, are more or less respected:
short ganja, rounded tip, Wide mata not respected, witout contrasting pamor, (very interesting and correct. I do not see two metals),Jawa demam Patani style, the sheath saribulan or tebeng , (I do not know because again I do not know these Malay words and their meaning.)
At the time of the purchase I was living in East malaysia and had no camera, so this is the way I recorded my purchase.
Michel

David · 22nd August 2007, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

... the hole in the peksi was not meant to hang the blade. What was explained to me was that these holes were rare and were for royal family only and were generally on short keris pajang (< 45 cm), the ultimate finish was to have the hole at the end of a twisted peksi !

Sorry to disagree with you here Michel, but while there might be some scenerio where a hole in the pesi is related to the royal family it is one i have never heard before. These holes are unusual, but i have seen many examples that definitely do not relate to royal ownership. This is not to imply that your keris wasn't meant for the royal family. Frankly i have no comment on that either way. But i personally own an old keris picit with a twisted pesi and a hole. It is a smaller keris than yours and it is my understanding that the hole was intended to hang the keris by. It was not owned by any kraton member AFAIK. :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

....witout contrasting pamor, (very interesting and correct. I do not see two metals)Michel

hmmm....you don't? I see more than one metal here.

I believe that if you stained this keris with warangan that it might become clearer to you.

BTW, very nice sketch. You have some artistic talent.

ganjawulung · 22nd August 2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Thank you Alan,
For this translation of "nginden" in "chatoyant", definitively a French word that I understand. It is nice to know Indonesian when you collect krisses but my last attempt to learn Bahasa Malaysia (in 1994-1997) had such poor results that I concluded that it was a wasted effort. In my ignorance I thought that Indonesian was so close to Javanese that one could use one for the other and vice versa. I apologies for this error.

Michel

Bahasa (Indonesian) is close to Malaysian language. One language family, but have some differences in vocabulary, and also different "accent" in expressing the words in oral practice. (In analogy, maybe like the Swedish and Danish language). Many Malaysian words derived from English words, but Indonesian words are more influenced by Dutch words.

Indonesian grammar is quite simple, much more simple than anglo or latin language family. Conjugation, declination like in Latin, or French, Spanish, is also unknown in Indonesian language.

Javanese -- just one of hundreds of local slangs in Indonesia. An it is much more complicated than Indonesian. West Java, speak "sundanese" which is much much diferrent with "javanese" in Central Java. Some Central javanese even don't understand sundanese. So, usually they speak "Indonesian". Indonesian languange, is commonly spoken in the entire of Indonesia...

I hope this tiny information will help you...

Ganjawulung

Michel · 22nd August 2007, 08:52 PM

Hi David,
I do not like either my explanation concerning the little hole in the peksi, in particular its relation to royal families. With a few exceptions, these relations with the local nobility are just selling gimmicks. My information was not from a seller, but from Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain, a famous master carver from Terengganu who had an extensive knowledge about keris. At 2 occasion he spoke about the little hole in the peksi:[/list]Once, about a keris lembing (also a leaf) produced in Terengganu and original of Majapahit only if with a little hole at the end of a twisted peksi.[list]The second time about a kris panjang minangkabau (south Sumatra) with the story about the royal Family.
I have never heard or read about the wall hanging explanation.
The little hole may have different reasons in the various parts of the Malay/Indonesian world ?
Could one of the knowledgeable person of the forum give us some light ?
Regards
Michel

Michel · 22nd August 2007, 09:01 PM

Thank you Ganjawulung,
for your explanation about Indonesian, Malay, Javanese.
In spite of the closeness between Malay and Indonesian, both countries utilize different words for the keris parts designation. The spelling, even in the same language, seems to be left to personal feeling. All this makes it rather complicate with my level of ignorance !
But I will follow Alan advice and purchase a good French/Indonesian dictionary !
Cheers
Michel

Raden Usman Djogja · 22nd August 2007, 09:51 PM

dear Kerislovers,

Simply, the uploaded image is very good and rare keris. It is like a high class sombro in Jawa. Ganja iras, seven tumbs, twisted with a hole at the end of pesi. Two things I still wanna know:

Firstly, may I see the pictures of this keris taken not from right or left side but from front and rear sides (from the shape sides). I would like to know whether this keris has 7 curves (luks). Some keris, even it is a straight keris, uniquely having luks (curves) if it is watched from front and rear of the shape sides.

Secondly, after stained with warangan, I hope this keris shows chatoyant and "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk". Excellent!!!

warm regards,
Usmen

David · 22nd August 2007, 10:22 PM

Usmen, do you think that in spite of the dress that this keris is of Jawa origin?
I agree that is a beautifully crafted keris.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2007, 12:24 AM

Michel, I understand that as a French speaker you would prefer an Indonesian/French/Indonesian dictionary, however, the best dictionary for you would be, I believe, the two volume Echolls and Shadilly. Your English is more than adequate, and this dictionary is far and away the best in the marketplace. A new Indonesian/English dictionary appeared only a few months back, which has been promoted as the best ever, but it is expensive and I really don't think it is any better for practical use than Echolls and Shadilly.

I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from.

One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place.

A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye.

Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.

Raden Usman Djogja · 23rd August 2007, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Usmen, do you think that in spite of the dress that this keris is of Jawa origin?
I agree that is a beautifully crafted keris.

David,

It is hard to say whether this keris is Jawa origin or not. Perhaps, I still need to have a look from front and rear and if possible after stained.

Alan said that this keris is not a sombro. However, I think if it is finally not a sombro, the influence of sombro type is obvious. I hope this is not either sombro or Jawa origin. Why? Because it will be very interesting then, at least, now it can be used as an evidence of inter-relation amongst empu in south-east asia.

As Alan said, I also have a curiousity that the kind of steel of its pesi and its blade are different. It will be easier to know it after stained with arsenicum.

warm salam,

Usmen

21st August 2007, 03:55 PM	#2
Sejr Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1	Pamor You may find a this type of reflection pamor on a kris from Pattani on the Krisdisk chapter10 fig 194 and a kris with a rather similar type of blade with pichit markings in the Krisdisk chapter 8 Fig 118. Kind regards Sejr

22nd August 2007, 05:48 AM	#4
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Keris Beko Greetings to all keris lovers, Michel, the term Beko comes from a leave called beko. The profile of a keris beko can be described as like any other sepukal dapur, but with certain characteristics: 1) Less protruding aring (ganja) 2) Dapur jalak (Javanese) at the middle of the blade 3) Rounded tip (compared to very narrow tip of Bugis Sepukal) 4) Overall mata / bilah is wider 5) Normally without contrasting pamor metal / or one metal type only 6) Jawa demam (peninsular / Pattani) style hilt 7) Sheath can be saribulan (Kelantan/Sumatra) or tebeng (Bugis / Pattani) Keris beko originates from Kelantan, Northern Malaysia and Pattani, Southern Thailand. Often produced to function as fighting keris....

22nd August 2007, 04:33 PM	#7
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Hi David, Interesting remarks you are making ! First the facts : the blade is 4 cm wide at the star/crescent decoration level and 2 cm before the the end of the blade. The length is 31.5 cm, blade only without peksi. A partial analysis: 1) A fighting keris ? The blade is 5mm thick in its center under the ganja iras. does it qualify for a description of a fighting keris ? A little thin for me. I have 2 fighting keris (at least I consider them as such) their blades are 7.5 mm just below the ganja and their length is 31 and 31.5 cm but sturdy blades. 2)Dapur Jalak . There again my ignorance is a problem. Fom Keris Jawa antara Mistic dans Nalar, page 116, the dapur Jalak seems to describe a strait blade with a clear center edge. I do not understand exactly what PenangsangII meant, I had the intention to dig a bit in my books to learn. 3) the hole in the peksi was not meant to hang the blade. What was explained to me was that these holes were rare and were for royal family only and were generally on short keris pajang (< 45 cm), the ultimate finish was to have the hole at the end of a twisted peksi ! 4) the others points of PenangsangII, are more or less respected: short ganja, rounded tip, Wide mata not respected, witout contrasting pamor, (very interesting and correct. I do not see two metals),Jawa demam Patani style, the sheath saribulan or tebeng , (I do not know because again I do not know these Malay words and their meaning.) At the time of the purchase I was living in East malaysia and had no camera, so this is the way I recorded my purchase. Michel Attached Images

22nd August 2007, 08:52 PM	#10
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Hole in the Peksi Hi David, I do not like either my explanation concerning the little hole in the peksi, in particular its relation to royal families. With a few exceptions, these relations with the local nobility are just selling gimmicks. My information was not from a seller, but from Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain, a famous master carver from Terengganu who had an extensive knowledge about keris. At 2 occasion he spoke about the little hole in the peksi:[/list]Once, about a keris lembing (also a leaf) produced in Terengganu and original of Majapahit only if with a little hole at the end of a twisted peksi.[list]The second time about a kris panjang minangkabau (south Sumatra) with the story about the royal Family. I have never heard or read about the wall hanging explanation. The little hole may have different reasons in the various parts of the Malay/Indonesian world ? Could one of the knowledgeable person of the forum give us some light ? Regards Michel

22nd August 2007, 09:01 PM	#11
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Indonesian Thank you Ganjawulung, for your explanation about Indonesian, Malay, Javanese. In spite of the closeness between Malay and Indonesian, both countries utilize different words for the keris parts designation. The spelling, even in the same language, seems to be left to personal feeling. All this makes it rather complicate with my level of ignorance ! But I will follow Alan advice and purchase a good French/Indonesian dictionary ! Cheers Michel

21st August 2007, 11:39 AM	#1
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Thank you Alan, For this translation of "nginden" in "chatoyant", definitively a French word that I understand. It is nice to know Indonesian when you collect krisses but my last attempt to learn Bahasa Malaysia (in 1994-1997) had such poor results that I concluded that it was a wasted effort. In my ignorance I thought that Indonesian was so close to Javanese that one could use one for the other and vice versa. I apologies for this error. If I understand you correctly, the pamor Mlumah is built parallel to the core and the pamor Miring is built perpendicular to the core. The miring technique requires a sizable pile of layers (as wide as the kris blade), sandwiching the core of the blade and that before being filed to give the waving aspect. Difficult to explain but I think that I get it. Thank you PenangsangII, for your translation of the word "sepukal" in Malaysia. A keris "Beko" is new for me. Is it a Malaysian word? and what does it means ? ? What does it relate to ? The shape ? Kind regards Michel

21st August 2007, 11:25 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Michel, I am remarkably untalented in the area of language. I used to get marks as low as 9---out of 100---in my school French examinations. I would get that 9 for reading because my accent was apparently almost perfect, but all the rest of the language was a mystery to me. Later on I learnt to read French cycling magazines fairly well. What I needed was the motivation. I could see no use for wasting time on learning French, so I never gave it any time---until I decided I wanted to read the cycling magazines. I had a similar experience when I started to learn Indonesian. I initially went to formal classes, language laboratories, etc, etc, etc. I got absolutely nowhere. So I designed my own program that involved extensive reading and writing in a vocabulary that was somewhat more adult than the brand of Indonesian taught in a classroom situation.This foundation was added to by live conversation when I was in Indonesia. Believe me, it is not a difficult language to learn to a level where you can more or less understand a book, or carry on basic conversation.If all you need to do is read the captions in your book, you will handle that easily with the assistance of a dictionary. Yes, your understanding of the difference between pamor mlumah and pamor miring is correct. The work involved in creating any pamor miring is multiples of that needed to create any pamor mlumah. Not only is the time and effort much greater to create pamor miring than it is to create pamor mlumah, but the level of skill required is also much greater.

22nd August 2007, 09:12 AM	#5
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Thanks you Alan, You give me courage and motivation to go and purchase an Indonesian dictionary. So far I had downloaded an Indonesian-French dictionary on the web but have had very little success with it. The first word I wanted to understand was "antara" and I could not find any translation. I guess it means: "between" in the Title Keris Jawa, antara Mistic dan Nalar. I will pursue my efforts with a good dictionary ! Thanks a lot PenangsangII, for this very good description of the keris Beko. Many very interesting elements in your description. Your way of analyzing and "reading" a Keris, reminds me of Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain of Kota Bahru, he "read" kerisses as you can read a book, a thing one can do only with a very large keris culture. Thanks again to both of you for sharing your culture about keris.

22nd August 2007, 09:51 PM	#12
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	dear Kerislovers, Simply, the uploaded image is very good and rare keris. It is like a high class sombro in Jawa. Ganja iras, seven tumbs, twisted with a hole at the end of pesi. Two things I still wanna know: Firstly, may I see the pictures of this keris taken not from right or left side but from front and rear sides (from the shape sides). I would like to know whether this keris has 7 curves (luks). Some keris, even it is a straight keris, uniquely having luks (curves) if it is watched from front and rear of the shape sides. Secondly, after stained with warangan, I hope this keris shows chatoyant and "pamor udan mas wengkon nguntu walang tumpuk". Excellent!!! warm regards, Usmen

22nd August 2007, 10:22 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Usmen, do you think that in spite of the dress that this keris is of Jawa origin? I agree that is a beautifully crafted keris.

23rd August 2007, 12:24 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Michel, I understand that as a French speaker you would prefer an Indonesian/French/Indonesian dictionary, however, the best dictionary for you would be, I believe, the two volume Echolls and Shadilly. Your English is more than adequate, and this dictionary is far and away the best in the marketplace. A new Indonesian/English dictionary appeared only a few months back, which has been promoted as the best ever, but it is expensive and I really don't think it is any better for practical use than Echolls and Shadilly. I'm sorry, but this keris is not a Sombro. A hole at the end of the pesi does not a Sombro make. I'm with Michel on this one, that this hole can have a different meaning depending on where the keris is from. One very well known keris writer of the recent past wanted this little hole to be for the fixing of a pin to hold the handle in place. A good story about these holes in Sombros is that Mpu Sombro would produce a heap of blades, and then walk from village to village selling them. To allow her to carry them easily, she made the hole in the end of the tang so they could be strung on a cord for carrying. Ever seen one with a hole broken through? OK, according to the story that happened when a buyer wanted a keris that was in the middle of the string---rather than take off all the blades and restring them, Mpu Sombro just broke the eye. Since these blades were and are talismanic, the hole was for suspension as a talisman.