How would you define this kris

Michel · 20th August 2007, 08:38 PM

Hi Simatua,
Thank you for the reference to The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom. I knew I had seen this pattern somewhere but could not remember where. Now the photo N° 57 , page 20 of the above mentioned book, shows a blade that is slightly blurred and I cannot really say that it is similar to mine. Solyom name it a pamor mlumah. Where from is your name of : Nginden ?
Do you speak bahasa Indonesia. Some Dutch people do.
When looking closely to my blade, I can see that the finger marks where hammered on a very hot blade, the opposite side of each finger marks being leveled on the anvil.

Lemmythesmith,
congratulation if you have forged such a pattern, you must master the heat welding fairly well. I understand the ladder filing, but what is the shape of the ingot and how are the metal layers ?
I have looked in Keris Jawa, Antara mistic dan Nalar (all in Javanese that I cannot understand) but have not found a similar pamor.

Thanks to both of your for your comments
Regards
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2007, 11:40 PM

"nginden" means "chatoyant"---like a cat's eye. It looks different depending on the angle of the light---you can see this clearly demonstrated in photo # 55,56.

Yes, Solyom names the pamor in photo #57 as a mlumah pamor, which means it has been constructed with the pamor layers in the same plane as the core, that is, laying down on the core, rather than standing up on the core. Your blade, Michel, has had the basic pamor constructed by a "miring" technique, whereby the pamor layers have been manipulated in the forging process so that they are standing at (more or less) right angles to the core of the blade.

Both the blade shown by Solyom as #57, and your blade have then had the grooves cut in the face of the forging before the forging has been forged out to shape.

Haryono Haryoguritno's book is written in Indonesian, not Javanese. Indonesian is not a particularly difficult language, and dictionaries are easily obtained. You will not be able to read the book just by using a dictionary, but you could understand sufficient to read the photo captions.

PenangsangII · 21st August 2007, 09:56 AM

A nice keris with unique pamor indeed.

I reckon that this keris is called keris Beko by the Peninsular Malaysians and the Southern Thai, since this keris originated from those areas.

Sepukal in Malaysian / Thai context is actually a generic term for straight kerises, and it can be divided into several categories, i.e. the claw like Bugis Sepukal, the slim Pandai Saras Sepukal, the Tok Chu Sepukal, Charita Sepukal, Beko Sepukal etc.

Michel · 21st August 2007, 11:39 AM

Thank you Alan,
For this translation of "nginden" in "chatoyant", definitively a French word that I understand. It is nice to know Indonesian when you collect krisses but my last attempt to learn Bahasa Malaysia (in 1994-1997) had such poor results that I concluded that it was a wasted effort. In my ignorance I thought that Indonesian was so close to Javanese that one could use one for the other and vice versa. I apologies for this error.

If I understand you correctly, the pamor Mlumah is built parallel to the core and the pamor Miring is built perpendicular to the core. The miring technique requires a sizable pile of layers (as wide as the kris blade), sandwiching the core of the blade and that before being filed to give the waving aspect. Difficult to explain but I think that I get it.

Thank you PenangsangII,
for your translation of the word "sepukal" in Malaysia.
A keris "Beko" is new for me. Is it a Malaysian word? and what does it means ? ? What does it relate to ? The shape ?
Kind regards
Michel

Sejr · 21st August 2007, 03:55 PM

You may find a this type of reflection pamor on a kris from Pattani on the Krisdisk chapter10 fig 194 and a kris with a rather similar type of blade with pichit markings in the Krisdisk chapter 8 Fig 118.

Kind regards

Sejr

A. G. Maisey · 21st August 2007, 11:25 PM

Michel, I am remarkably untalented in the area of language. I used to get marks as low as 9---out of 100---in my school French examinations. I would get that 9 for reading because my accent was apparently almost perfect, but all the rest of the language was a mystery to me. Later on I learnt to read French cycling magazines fairly well. What I needed was the motivation. I could see no use for wasting time on learning French, so I never gave it any time---until I decided I wanted to read the cycling magazines.

I had a similar experience when I started to learn Indonesian. I initially went to formal classes, language laboratories, etc, etc, etc. I got absolutely nowhere. So I designed my own program that involved extensive reading and writing in a vocabulary that was somewhat more adult than the brand of Indonesian taught in a classroom situation.This foundation was added to by live conversation when I was in Indonesia.

Believe me, it is not a difficult language to learn to a level where you can more or less understand a book, or carry on basic conversation.If all you need to do is read the captions in your book, you will handle that easily with the assistance of a dictionary.

Yes, your understanding of the difference between pamor mlumah and pamor miring is correct. The work involved in creating any pamor miring is multiples of that needed to create any pamor mlumah. Not only is the time and effort much greater to create pamor miring than it is to create pamor mlumah, but the level of skill required is also much greater.

PenangsangII · 22nd August 2007, 05:48 AM

Greetings to all keris lovers,

Michel, the term Beko comes from a leave called beko. The profile of a keris beko can be described as like any other sepukal dapur, but with certain characteristics:
1) Less protruding aring (ganja)
2) Dapur jalak (Javanese) at the middle of the blade
3) Rounded tip (compared to very narrow tip of Bugis Sepukal)
4) Overall mata / bilah is wider
5) Normally without contrasting pamor metal / or one metal type only
6) Jawa demam (peninsular / Pattani) style hilt
7) Sheath can be saribulan (Kelantan/Sumatra) or tebeng (Bugis / Pattani)

Keris beko originates from Kelantan, Northern Malaysia and Pattani, Southern Thailand. Often produced to function as fighting keris....

Michel · 22nd August 2007, 09:12 AM

Thanks you Alan,
You give me courage and motivation to go and purchase an Indonesian dictionary. So far I had downloaded an Indonesian-French dictionary on the web but have had very little success with it. The first word I wanted to understand was "antara" and I could not find any translation. I guess it means: "between" in the Title Keris Jawa, antara Mistic dan Nalar.
I will pursue my efforts with a good dictionary !

Thanks a lot PenangsangII,
for this very good description of the keris Beko. Many very interesting elements in your description. Your way of analyzing and "reading" a Keris, reminds me of Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain of Kota Bahru, he "read" kerisses as you can read a book, a thing one can do only with a very large keris culture.

Thanks again to both of you for sharing your culture about keris.

David · 22nd August 2007, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Greetings to all keris lovers,

Michel, the term Beko comes from a leave called beko. The profile of a keris beko can be described as like any other sepukal dapur, but with certain characteristics:
1) Less protruding aring (ganja)
2) Dapur jalak (Javanese) at the middle of the blade
3) Rounded tip (compared to very narrow tip of Bugis Sepukal)
4) Overall mata / bilah is wider
5) Normally without contrasting pamor metal / or one metal type only
6) Jawa demam (peninsular / Pattani) style hilt
7) Sheath can be saribulan (Kelantan/Sumatra) or tebeng (Bugis / Pattani)

Keris beko originates from Kelantan, Northern Malaysia and Pattani, Southern Thailand. Often produced to function as fighting keris....

Given this description i am confused as to why this blade would definitely be called keris beko. It certainly wasn't made to be a fighting blade, it definitely has a contrasting pamor and i am not so sure that the blade is particularly wide. Dimensions of the blade would be helpful.
Given the finger imprints (picit, pecetan), the hole in the pesi and the gold crescent and star i would venture that this is a purely talismanic blade. The hole might imply that it was never meant to have such dress, but was instead meant to hang in an auspicious place in the home.
BTW, just to avoid confusion in the future i believe it would be more correct to define "aring" as the tail end of the gonjo, not the entire gonjo itself.

ganjawulung · 22nd August 2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Thank you Alan,
For this translation of "nginden" in "chatoyant", definitively a French word that I understand. It is nice to know Indonesian when you collect krisses but my last attempt to learn Bahasa Malaysia (in 1994-1997) had such poor results that I concluded that it was a wasted effort. In my ignorance I thought that Indonesian was so close to Javanese that one could use one for the other and vice versa. I apologies for this error.

Michel

Bahasa (Indonesian) is close to Malaysian language. One language family, but have some differences in vocabulary, and also different "accent" in expressing the words in oral practice. (In analogy, maybe like the Swedish and Danish language). Many Malaysian words derived from English words, but Indonesian words are more influenced by Dutch words.

Indonesian grammar is quite simple, much more simple than anglo or latin language family. Conjugation, declination like in Latin, or French, Spanish, is also unknown in Indonesian language.

Javanese -- just one of hundreds of local slangs in Indonesia. An it is much more complicated than Indonesian. West Java, speak "sundanese" which is much much diferrent with "javanese" in Central Java. Some Central javanese even don't understand sundanese. So, usually they speak "Indonesian". Indonesian languange, is commonly spoken in the entire of Indonesia...

I hope this tiny information will help you...

Ganjawulung

Michel · 22nd August 2007, 08:52 PM

Hi David,
I do not like either my explanation concerning the little hole in the peksi, in particular its relation to royal families. With a few exceptions, these relations with the local nobility are just selling gimmicks. My information was not from a seller, but from Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain, a famous master carver from Terengganu who had an extensive knowledge about keris. At 2 occasion he spoke about the little hole in the peksi:[/list]Once, about a keris lembing (also a leaf) produced in Terengganu and original of Majapahit only if with a little hole at the end of a twisted peksi.[list]The second time about a kris panjang minangkabau (south Sumatra) with the story about the royal Family.
I have never heard or read about the wall hanging explanation.
The little hole may have different reasons in the various parts of the Malay/Indonesian world ?
Could one of the knowledgeable person of the forum give us some light ?
Regards
Michel

Michel · 22nd August 2007, 09:01 PM

Thank you Ganjawulung,
for your explanation about Indonesian, Malay, Javanese.
In spite of the closeness between Malay and Indonesian, both countries utilize different words for the keris parts designation. The spelling, even in the same language, seems to be left to personal feeling. All this makes it rather complicate with my level of ignorance !
But I will follow Alan advice and purchase a good French/Indonesian dictionary !
Cheers
Michel

20th August 2007, 08:38 PM	#1
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Nginden Hi Simatua, Thank you for the reference to The world of the Javanese keris / Garret and Bronwen Solyom. I knew I had seen this pattern somewhere but could not remember where. Now the photo N° 57 , page 20 of the above mentioned book, shows a blade that is slightly blurred and I cannot really say that it is similar to mine. Solyom name it a pamor mlumah. Where from is your name of : Nginden ? Do you speak bahasa Indonesia. Some Dutch people do. When looking closely to my blade, I can see that the finger marks where hammered on a very hot blade, the opposite side of each finger marks being leveled on the anvil. Lemmythesmith, congratulation if you have forged such a pattern, you must master the heat welding fairly well. I understand the ladder filing, but what is the shape of the ingot and how are the metal layers ? I have looked in Keris Jawa, Antara mistic dan Nalar (all in Javanese that I cannot understand) but have not found a similar pamor. Thanks to both of your for your comments Regards Michel

21st August 2007, 09:56 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Sepukal A nice keris with unique pamor indeed. I reckon that this keris is called keris Beko by the Peninsular Malaysians and the Southern Thai, since this keris originated from those areas. Sepukal in Malaysian / Thai context is actually a generic term for straight kerises, and it can be divided into several categories, i.e. the claw like Bugis Sepukal, the slim Pandai Saras Sepukal, the Tok Chu Sepukal, Charita Sepukal, Beko Sepukal etc.

22nd August 2007, 05:48 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Keris Beko Greetings to all keris lovers, Michel, the term Beko comes from a leave called beko. The profile of a keris beko can be described as like any other sepukal dapur, but with certain characteristics: 1) Less protruding aring (ganja) 2) Dapur jalak (Javanese) at the middle of the blade 3) Rounded tip (compared to very narrow tip of Bugis Sepukal) 4) Overall mata / bilah is wider 5) Normally without contrasting pamor metal / or one metal type only 6) Jawa demam (peninsular / Pattani) style hilt 7) Sheath can be saribulan (Kelantan/Sumatra) or tebeng (Bugis / Pattani) Keris beko originates from Kelantan, Northern Malaysia and Pattani, Southern Thailand. Often produced to function as fighting keris....

22nd August 2007, 08:52 PM	#11
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Hole in the Peksi Hi David, I do not like either my explanation concerning the little hole in the peksi, in particular its relation to royal families. With a few exceptions, these relations with the local nobility are just selling gimmicks. My information was not from a seller, but from Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain, a famous master carver from Terengganu who had an extensive knowledge about keris. At 2 occasion he spoke about the little hole in the peksi:[/list]Once, about a keris lembing (also a leaf) produced in Terengganu and original of Majapahit only if with a little hole at the end of a twisted peksi.[list]The second time about a kris panjang minangkabau (south Sumatra) with the story about the royal Family. I have never heard or read about the wall hanging explanation. The little hole may have different reasons in the various parts of the Malay/Indonesian world ? Could one of the knowledgeable person of the forum give us some light ? Regards Michel

22nd August 2007, 09:01 PM	#12
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Indonesian Thank you Ganjawulung, for your explanation about Indonesian, Malay, Javanese. In spite of the closeness between Malay and Indonesian, both countries utilize different words for the keris parts designation. The spelling, even in the same language, seems to be left to personal feeling. All this makes it rather complicate with my level of ignorance ! But I will follow Alan advice and purchase a good French/Indonesian dictionary ! Cheers Michel

20th August 2007, 11:40 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	"nginden" means "chatoyant"---like a cat's eye. It looks different depending on the angle of the light---you can see this clearly demonstrated in photo # 55,56. Yes, Solyom names the pamor in photo #57 as a mlumah pamor, which means it has been constructed with the pamor layers in the same plane as the core, that is, laying down on the core, rather than standing up on the core. Your blade, Michel, has had the basic pamor constructed by a "miring" technique, whereby the pamor layers have been manipulated in the forging process so that they are standing at (more or less) right angles to the core of the blade. Both the blade shown by Solyom as #57, and your blade have then had the grooves cut in the face of the forging before the forging has been forged out to shape. Haryono Haryoguritno's book is written in Indonesian, not Javanese. Indonesian is not a particularly difficult language, and dictionaries are easily obtained. You will not be able to read the book just by using a dictionary, but you could understand sufficient to read the photo captions.

21st August 2007, 11:39 AM	#4
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Thank you Alan, For this translation of "nginden" in "chatoyant", definitively a French word that I understand. It is nice to know Indonesian when you collect krisses but my last attempt to learn Bahasa Malaysia (in 1994-1997) had such poor results that I concluded that it was a wasted effort. In my ignorance I thought that Indonesian was so close to Javanese that one could use one for the other and vice versa. I apologies for this error. If I understand you correctly, the pamor Mlumah is built parallel to the core and the pamor Miring is built perpendicular to the core. The miring technique requires a sizable pile of layers (as wide as the kris blade), sandwiching the core of the blade and that before being filed to give the waving aspect. Difficult to explain but I think that I get it. Thank you PenangsangII, for your translation of the word "sepukal" in Malaysia. A keris "Beko" is new for me. Is it a Malaysian word? and what does it means ? ? What does it relate to ? The shape ? Kind regards Michel

21st August 2007, 03:55 PM	#5
Sejr Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1	Pamor You may find a this type of reflection pamor on a kris from Pattani on the Krisdisk chapter10 fig 194 and a kris with a rather similar type of blade with pichit markings in the Krisdisk chapter 8 Fig 118. Kind regards Sejr

21st August 2007, 11:25 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Michel, I am remarkably untalented in the area of language. I used to get marks as low as 9---out of 100---in my school French examinations. I would get that 9 for reading because my accent was apparently almost perfect, but all the rest of the language was a mystery to me. Later on I learnt to read French cycling magazines fairly well. What I needed was the motivation. I could see no use for wasting time on learning French, so I never gave it any time---until I decided I wanted to read the cycling magazines. I had a similar experience when I started to learn Indonesian. I initially went to formal classes, language laboratories, etc, etc, etc. I got absolutely nowhere. So I designed my own program that involved extensive reading and writing in a vocabulary that was somewhat more adult than the brand of Indonesian taught in a classroom situation.This foundation was added to by live conversation when I was in Indonesia. Believe me, it is not a difficult language to learn to a level where you can more or less understand a book, or carry on basic conversation.If all you need to do is read the captions in your book, you will handle that easily with the assistance of a dictionary. Yes, your understanding of the difference between pamor mlumah and pamor miring is correct. The work involved in creating any pamor miring is multiples of that needed to create any pamor mlumah. Not only is the time and effort much greater to create pamor miring than it is to create pamor mlumah, but the level of skill required is also much greater.

22nd August 2007, 09:12 AM	#8
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Thanks you Alan, You give me courage and motivation to go and purchase an Indonesian dictionary. So far I had downloaded an Indonesian-French dictionary on the web but have had very little success with it. The first word I wanted to understand was "antara" and I could not find any translation. I guess it means: "between" in the Title Keris Jawa, antara Mistic dan Nalar. I will pursue my efforts with a good dictionary ! Thanks a lot PenangsangII, for this very good description of the keris Beko. Many very interesting elements in your description. Your way of analyzing and "reading" a Keris, reminds me of Nik Rashiddin Nik Hussain of Kota Bahru, he "read" kerisses as you can read a book, a thing one can do only with a very large keris culture. Thanks again to both of you for sharing your culture about keris.