Short bladed tulwar

katana · 20th August 2007, 04:54 PM

Hi Lew
whereabouts is the 'point of balance'....it may help to determine whether this sword was shortened or made that size

BBJW · 20th August 2007, 05:56 PM

IMHO the blade was broken at some point and redone. I have some European swords in my collection that either been period shortened or broken and then saw naval usage. This piece was obviously too nice to be discarded or given to a child.

bbjw

ham · 20th August 2007, 06:14 PM

CharlesS is correct, this is a secondary weapon and there is nothing unusual about its size seen in that context. Such swords are not cavalry weapons-- rather, they are used for close foot-fighting of the sort in which a long blade would be a liability rather than a benefit-- a good parallel would be the wakizashi.
Its proportions and form in no way suggest that it has been shortened, actually it is quite a pleasing piece of work.

Ham

Henk · 20th August 2007, 07:18 PM

I agree with Ian and bbjw. If i look at the close up of the tip it says to me that the sword was shortened. The fuller ends very close to the tip like something is missing. Unfortunately we cann't see the sword in live.
Maybe I'm mistaken and Ham has a great knowledge of these type of weapons.

Fact is that we all agree that it is a beautiful sword.

Lew · 20th August 2007, 10:40 PM

If this was a shortened sword than the fuller's placement would be higher up at tip it would not be running through the bottom third of the blade at that point which seems to be the center axis of the blade. If you were to extend the tip 8-10 inches you would have the fuller in the center of that section of the tip and it would have a much wider cross section. The sword below has the same swedge cut into the spine and if it were to be shortened you would loose that cut out at the far end of the blade.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 21st August 2007, 06:20 PM

I agree completely with Ham's assessment supporting Charles observation.This short tulwar does indeed appear a secondary type weapon intended as Ham notes, for close in fighting.

It is interesting to note that describing noticeably short swords as childs swords is a common assumption. We do know of course that such swords did indeed exist, but the best guage is often to evaluate the size of the hilt, as has been noted here.

The use of shorter swords for close combat is best seen in Ham's excellent comparison noting the wakizashi, which comprised the intermediate of the suite of swords carried by the Samurai. In China, many of the forms of dao are found with extremely short blades, which are considered to have been mounted for in close combat or use in the close confines in allies and narrow streets of cities of the time.
It seems that there are numerous instances of cross influence between the weapons of China and India.While comparison between this example of short bladed tulwar and the similarly short bladed dao does not suggest any direct connection, it does seem worthy of note.

Best regards,
Jim

kronckew · 21st August 2007, 06:38 PM

the deadliest sword of the European area was the Roman gladius and it's associated weapons system, designed for close combat by infantry who were superbly trained in supporting each other, they easily beat the gauls and celts with their longer weapons who fought as individual warriors rather than as soldiers. in gaul alone julius caesar killed over a million or two in a few years, (tho not exclusively with the gladius). as the empire degenerated and the legions were a shadow of themselves, the longer cavalry spatha became the weapon of choice, most of the 'legionaries' were barbarian mercs who preferred them. in it's setting (close foot combat with a shield & armour) as part of it's weapons system, the gladius was and probably still is unequalled. it does not surprise me that other cultures found a similar solution to similar situations.

Lew · 22nd August 2007, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Lew
whereabouts is the 'point of balance'....it may help to determine whether this sword was shortened or made that size

4.5 inches foward of the cross guard.

Lew

Fayaz94 · 25th April 2019, 06:23 PM

Hi Lew,

I know what that sword is as I practice an Indian battlefield art called shastar vidiya.
It's a sword for the God styles of fighting - 8 armed Goddess (asthbuja Deva chandika).
I've actually been looking for one like that for ages. The Arabic inscription on the spine probably indicates it was made by a Muslim sword smith or for someone of that faith despite it being a sword based off Indian mythology.
If you still possess the sword would you be willing to sell? As I have been seeking such an item for at least 3 years to train with. Let me know, many thanks.

20th August 2007, 05:56 PM	#2
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Broken IMHO the blade was broken at some point and redone. I have some European swords in my collection that either been period shortened or broken and then saw naval usage. This piece was obviously too nice to be discarded or given to a child. bbjw

20th August 2007, 10:40 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	If this was a shortened sword than the fuller's placement would be higher up at tip it would not be running through the bottom third of the blade at that point which seems to be the center axis of the blade. If you were to extend the tip 8-10 inches you would have the fuller in the center of that section of the tip and it would have a much wider cross section. The sword below has the same swedge cut into the spine and if it were to be shortened you would loose that cut out at the far end of the blade. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 20th August 2007 at 11:06 PM.

20th August 2007, 04:54 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Lew whereabouts is the 'point of balance'....it may help to determine whether this sword was shortened or made that size

20th August 2007, 06:14 PM	#3
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	CharlesS is correct, this is a secondary weapon and there is nothing unusual about its size seen in that context. Such swords are not cavalry weapons-- rather, they are used for close foot-fighting of the sort in which a long blade would be a liability rather than a benefit-- a good parallel would be the wakizashi. Its proportions and form in no way suggest that it has been shortened, actually it is quite a pleasing piece of work. Ham

20th August 2007, 07:18 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I agree with Ian and bbjw. If i look at the close up of the tip it says to me that the sword was shortened. The fuller ends very close to the tip like something is missing. Unfortunately we cann't see the sword in live. Maybe I'm mistaken and Ham has a great knowledge of these type of weapons. Fact is that we all agree that it is a beautiful sword.

21st August 2007, 06:20 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	I agree completely with Ham's assessment supporting Charles observation.This short tulwar does indeed appear a secondary type weapon intended as Ham notes, for close in fighting. It is interesting to note that describing noticeably short swords as childs swords is a common assumption. We do know of course that such swords did indeed exist, but the best guage is often to evaluate the size of the hilt, as has been noted here. The use of shorter swords for close combat is best seen in Ham's excellent comparison noting the wakizashi, which comprised the intermediate of the suite of swords carried by the Samurai. In China, many of the forms of dao are found with extremely short blades, which are considered to have been mounted for in close combat or use in the close confines in allies and narrow streets of cities of the time. It seems that there are numerous instances of cross influence between the weapons of China and India.While comparison between this example of short bladed tulwar and the similarly short bladed dao does not suggest any direct connection, it does seem worthy of note. Best regards, Jim

21st August 2007, 06:38 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,227	the deadliest sword of the European area was the Roman gladius and it's associated weapons system, designed for close combat by infantry who were superbly trained in supporting each other, they easily beat the gauls and celts with their longer weapons who fought as individual warriors rather than as soldiers. in gaul alone julius caesar killed over a million or two in a few years, (tho not exclusively with the gladius). as the empire degenerated and the legions were a shadow of themselves, the longer cavalry spatha became the weapon of choice, most of the 'legionaries' were barbarian mercs who preferred them. in it's setting (close foot combat with a shield & armour) as part of it's weapons system, the gladius was and probably still is unequalled. it does not surprise me that other cultures found a similar solution to similar situations.

25th April 2019, 06:23 PM	#9
Fayaz94 Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 2	Hi Lew, I know what that sword is as I practice an Indian battlefield art called shastar vidiya. It's a sword for the God styles of fighting - 8 armed Goddess (asthbuja Deva chandika). I've actually been looking for one like that for ages. The Arabic inscription on the spine probably indicates it was made by a Muslim sword smith or for someone of that faith despite it being a sword based off Indian mythology. If you still possess the sword would you be willing to sell? As I have been seeking such an item for at least 3 years to train with. Let me know, many thanks.