A Kampillan...But Moro???

Dajak · 19th August 2007, 05:52 AM

Hi Michael
The Murut s was an large group off people from North Borneo so Evans did only a very small aerea of North Borneo and as you can read is that by travalling there people make mistakes so why is Evans right and the others that study and and visit long time before Evans are wrong .
Hein make an study same as Zonneveld did .
Take a look at the pakayuns they larger that any mandau or parang from North Borneo how could it be Evan did not see it ???

Can you explain that to me .

Ben

VVV · 19th August 2007, 10:08 AM

Hi Ben,

We are discussing the Kampilan and Borneo tribes that used the Kampilan.
I don't mind discussing the Murut but then I think it's more proper that we should do it in another thread than this.

1. Are you claiming that studying the Murut shares some insight in the distribution and use of the Kampilan in North Borneo?

2. Ling Roth is one of the 6 sources I have used to see if there ever existed a tribe called the Sun Dayak.
Ling Roth lists all tribes and sub-tribes in detail but doesn't mention the Sun Dayaks.
Have you fund any proof of that there ever existed a tribe in North Borneo named Sun, unless it's another name of the Dusun?

3. Of course nobody is perfect but in what way is Evans wrong regarding Kampilan and Dusun vs Bajau & Illanun?

Studying from other sources alone, like Hein and van Zonneveld, is of course dependant on the quality of the sources and the understanding of them. There is often a higher risk of misunderstandings than doing your own research on the field, as Evans did.
The same for us two (even if I have at least visited North Borneo twice and met the tribes IRL, but unfortunately after they stopped using the Kampilan.).

Michael

Dajak · 19th August 2007, 10:35 AM

Hi Michael what I am trying to say that it is mostly time blocks like 1800-1825
1825-1850 in movement and changes like from kampilan / mandau to gun .

....tribes disapear .....

....new tribes coming .....

So that is always difficult I never visit Borneo but now a little bit more about the mandau Jimpul than most off the people that live there (Because now they make shows overthere to please the tourist people)so that is no excuse If some one has been there or not it is only an time moment ( I did visit bali in 2001 and in 2006 and did see a lot off difference in only 5 years ,
what you think there will more difference if I wait 25 years .

The best mandau Jimpuls Kampilans are out side Borneo / Philipine why the wood from the old mandau or kampilan suvived because they where taken early from there)

Stone did thell the kampilan is used bij the seadajaks he might have seen a few with kampilan s it is also not sure if the kampilan find his roots in the philipine we do not now 100 % maybe it was coming from celebes timor and developt bij the philipine people there is not 100% proof.

It is always hard to find out the right tings mostly many idea s and if Evans say so maybe hein tell different but who to believe .

(maybe we want Evans to belive because we like his story but is it true Evans did go out by him self
Hein did take a few people that have been there and study so I am like more a few people telling somthing than only stay with one person .)

And if we take a look at the map we can see that Evans not get an great area because he would have seen that the murut s are there would also tell some about the murut s .

some pic s off my kampilan I think this one is from Boneo

Ben

VVV · 19th August 2007, 10:47 AM

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your response and I agree with a lot of it, but not all.
Maybe we should focus on one question at the time.

Have you found any evidence of that there ever existed a dayak tribe called the Sun in North Borneo,
unless it's another name for the Dusun?

Michael

Dajak · 19th August 2007, 12:02 PM

It could be that they live in an area where the sunbear was seen but I will search.

I found it you are right the Sundajak also now by the name off Dusun so Dr Sonne who lived a long time with these people at the Marudubai .
So no reason to doubt what Hein tells about these weapons.
read hein 348.

He also write that some off these piece s where found at market s in Madrid
in 1892

So Sundajak as name is right .

ben

VVV · 19th August 2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

...I found it you are right the Sundajak also now by the name off Dusun so Dr Sonne who lived a long time with these people at the Marudubai...
ben

Thanks Ben,

Then that part is cleared.
I have also found that in some old sources, like Rutter, they don't differentiate between the Dusun and the Bajau & Illanun.
They just divide the original inhabitants of North Borneo as either Murut and then the rest is called Dusun.
I assume Dr Sonne belonged to that school based on the title of his work?
Marudubai is Marudu Bay so he lived among the coastal tribes which had contact with the Philippines.

It's also interesting that Hein/Sonne, if I understand his German correct, also had the opinion that the Kampilan is an imported sword from the Illanuns with origin in the Philippines.

Btw, very nice old Kampilan you added to your post.

Michael

Dajak · 19th August 2007, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks Ben,

Then that part is cleared.
I have also found that in some old sources, like Rutter, they don't differentiate between the Dusun and the Bajau & Illanun.
They just divide the original inhabitants of North Borneo as either Murut and then the rest is called Dusun.
I assume Dr Sonne belonged to that school based on the title of his work?
Marudubai is Marudu Bay so he lived among the coastal tribes which had contact with the Philippines.

It's also interesting that Hein/Sonne, if I understand his German correct, also had the opinion that the Kampilan is an imported sword from the Illanuns with origin in the Philippines.

Btw, very nice old Kampilan you added to your post.

Michael

Hi Michael

Yes you correct that he tells the kampilan is imported from the Illannus .

Sonne must live the in the late 1800 in the North part so I gonna try to get his book maybe more good information in it .

Ben

VANDOO · 30th October 2008, 05:00 AM

I AM NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS YOU GUYS AS FAR AS KNOWLEGE OF THESE THINGS.

BUT IT SEEMS TO ME A GOOD PALCE TO LOOK FOR FURTHER INFORMATION MIGHT BE ANTHROPOLIGICAL STUDIES. DUE TO THE STUDIES DONE ON THE POLYNESIANS THEY HAVE TRACKED THEIR MOVEMENTS FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND THRU TIME. IF STUDIES HAVE BEEN DONE IN YOUR AREA OF THE WORLD IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO TRACK SEVERAL WAVES OF MIGRATION TO AND FROM PLACES AND PERHAPS THRU LUCK AND ARTEFACTS PIECE TOGETHER A POSSIBLE ORIGIN FOR KAMPILIAN TYPE WEAPONS AS WELL AS OTHERS. YOU WOULD ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AS FAR BACK IN TIME AS TO WHEN IRON AND THE TECKNOLOGY TO WORK IT AS WELL AS WHEN TRADERS FROM MORE ADVANCED SOCIETYS CAME INTO THE AREA.
CHOPPER TYPE BLADES WERE AROUND VERY EARLY IN CHINA AND INDIA AND THEY WERE SEA FARING TRADERS. THEY MAY HAVE ESTABLISHED TRADE IN BORNEO AND THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE ANY OTHERS OR ONE OF THE WAVES OF IMIGRATION MAY HAVE BROUGHT THE FORM IN.
AS TO WHY ONE TRIBE MIGHT BE IGNORED OR LEFT OUT OF A REFRENCE WORK,
1.TIME AND MONEY IS GENERALLY VERY LIMITED.
2. IF YOU ARE SEEN AS A FRIEND OF AN ENEMY TRIBE YOU WILL NOT BE WELCOME.
3. PERHAPS ANOTHER TRIP TO COVER WHAT WAS MISSED THE FIRST TIME WAS PLANNED BUT FOR LIFE'S MANY REASONS WAS NEVER DONE.
4. YOU RELY ON REFRENCES WHICH MAY BE IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE AND INTERPRET TRIBAL NAMES WRONG, OR THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR OF THE REFRENCE MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT HE WAS TOLD AND GOT IT WRONG.
MISTAKES ARE MADE, THINGS ARE OMITTED IN ALL REFRENCES.

WE JUST HAVE TO DO THE BEST WE CAN WITH THE REFRENCES THAT ARE AVAILABLE AND IN A LANGUAGE WE CAN READ

VVV · 25th January 2011, 09:50 AM

I just found this very interesting documentary that sheds some more light on the Illanun tribe and why you find kampilan etc. also on Borneo.
It has Swedish subtitles but it's recorded in English:

http://www.ur.se/play/161129

Unfortunately they obviously didn't employ any weapon experts but still nice to see the Kalis, Barong and Kampilan presented on TV as well as them being used in action.

Happy watching for all Moro collectors!

Michael

VVV · 25th January 2011, 10:00 AM

Here is a bonus reference btw, a kampilan with twist core.

Michael

Battara · 25th January 2011, 06:50 PM

Thanks Michael, what a nice piece. Not often that one sees twistcore on a kampilan let alone a Moro piece.

19th August 2007, 05:52 AM	#1
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael The Murut s was an large group off people from North Borneo so Evans did only a very small aerea of North Borneo and as you can read is that by travalling there people make mistakes so why is Evans right and the others that study and and visit long time before Evans are wrong . Hein make an study same as Zonneveld did . Take a look at the pakayuns they larger that any mandau or parang from North Borneo how could it be Evan did not see it ??? Can you explain that to me . Ben Attached Images Last edited by Dajak; 19th August 2007 at 06:15 AM.

19th August 2007, 10:08 AM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Ben, We are discussing the Kampilan and Borneo tribes that used the Kampilan. I don't mind discussing the Murut but then I think it's more proper that we should do it in another thread than this. 1. Are you claiming that studying the Murut shares some insight in the distribution and use of the Kampilan in North Borneo? 2. Ling Roth is one of the 6 sources I have used to see if there ever existed a tribe called the Sun Dayak. Ling Roth lists all tribes and sub-tribes in detail but doesn't mention the Sun Dayaks. Have you fund any proof of that there ever existed a tribe in North Borneo named Sun, unless it's another name of the Dusun? 3. Of course nobody is perfect but in what way is Evans wrong regarding Kampilan and Dusun vs Bajau & Illanun? Studying from other sources alone, like Hein and van Zonneveld, is of course dependant on the quality of the sources and the understanding of them. There is often a higher risk of misunderstandings than doing your own research on the field, as Evans did. The same for us two (even if I have at least visited North Borneo twice and met the tribes IRL, but unfortunately after they stopped using the Kampilan.). Michael Last edited by VVV; 19th August 2007 at 10:19 AM.

19th August 2007, 10:35 AM	#3
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael what I am trying to say that it is mostly time blocks like 1800-1825 1825-1850 in movement and changes like from kampilan / mandau to gun . ....tribes disapear ..... ....new tribes coming ..... So that is always difficult I never visit Borneo but now a little bit more about the mandau Jimpul than most off the people that live there (Because now they make shows overthere to please the tourist people)so that is no excuse If some one has been there or not it is only an time moment ( I did visit bali in 2001 and in 2006 and did see a lot off difference in only 5 years , what you think there will more difference if I wait 25 years . The best mandau Jimpuls Kampilans are out side Borneo / Philipine why the wood from the old mandau or kampilan suvived because they where taken early from there) Stone did thell the kampilan is used bij the seadajaks he might have seen a few with kampilan s it is also not sure if the kampilan find his roots in the philipine we do not now 100 % maybe it was coming from celebes timor and developt bij the philipine people there is not 100% proof. It is always hard to find out the right tings mostly many idea s and if Evans say so maybe hein tell different but who to believe . (maybe we want Evans to belive because we like his story but is it true Evans did go out by him self Hein did take a few people that have been there and study so I am like more a few people telling somthing than only stay with one person .) And if we take a look at the map we can see that Evans not get an great area because he would have seen that the murut s are there would also tell some about the murut s . some pic s off my kampilan I think this one is from Boneo Ben Attached Images Last edited by Dajak; 19th August 2007 at 10:55 AM.

19th August 2007, 12:02 PM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	It could be that they live in an area where the sunbear was seen but I will search. I found it you are right the Sundajak also now by the name off Dusun so Dr Sonne who lived a long time with these people at the Marudubai . So no reason to doubt what Hein tells about these weapons. read hein 348. He also write that some off these piece s where found at market s in Madrid in 1892 So Sundajak as name is right . ben Last edited by Dajak; 19th August 2007 at 12:16 PM.

25th January 2011, 09:50 AM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Raiders of the Sulu Sea - Documentary I just found this very interesting documentary that sheds some more light on the Illanun tribe and why you find kampilan etc. also on Borneo. It has Swedish subtitles but it's recorded in English: http://www.ur.se/play/161129 Unfortunately they obviously didn't employ any weapon experts but still nice to see the Kalis, Barong and Kampilan presented on TV as well as them being used in action. Happy watching for all Moro collectors! Michael

19th August 2007, 10:47 AM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Ben, Thanks for your response and I agree with a lot of it, but not all. Maybe we should focus on one question at the time. Have you found any evidence of that there ever existed a dayak tribe called the Sun in North Borneo, unless it's another name for the Dusun? Michael

30th October 2008, 05:00 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS YOU GUYS AS FAR AS KNOWLEGE OF THESE THINGS. BUT IT SEEMS TO ME A GOOD PALCE TO LOOK FOR FURTHER INFORMATION MIGHT BE ANTHROPOLIGICAL STUDIES. DUE TO THE STUDIES DONE ON THE POLYNESIANS THEY HAVE TRACKED THEIR MOVEMENTS FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND THRU TIME. IF STUDIES HAVE BEEN DONE IN YOUR AREA OF THE WORLD IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO TRACK SEVERAL WAVES OF MIGRATION TO AND FROM PLACES AND PERHAPS THRU LUCK AND ARTEFACTS PIECE TOGETHER A POSSIBLE ORIGIN FOR KAMPILIAN TYPE WEAPONS AS WELL AS OTHERS. YOU WOULD ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AS FAR BACK IN TIME AS TO WHEN IRON AND THE TECKNOLOGY TO WORK IT AS WELL AS WHEN TRADERS FROM MORE ADVANCED SOCIETYS CAME INTO THE AREA. CHOPPER TYPE BLADES WERE AROUND VERY EARLY IN CHINA AND INDIA AND THEY WERE SEA FARING TRADERS. THEY MAY HAVE ESTABLISHED TRADE IN BORNEO AND THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE ANY OTHERS OR ONE OF THE WAVES OF IMIGRATION MAY HAVE BROUGHT THE FORM IN. AS TO WHY ONE TRIBE MIGHT BE IGNORED OR LEFT OUT OF A REFRENCE WORK, 1.TIME AND MONEY IS GENERALLY VERY LIMITED. 2. IF YOU ARE SEEN AS A FRIEND OF AN ENEMY TRIBE YOU WILL NOT BE WELCOME. 3. PERHAPS ANOTHER TRIP TO COVER WHAT WAS MISSED THE FIRST TIME WAS PLANNED BUT FOR LIFE'S MANY REASONS WAS NEVER DONE. 4. YOU RELY ON REFRENCES WHICH MAY BE IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE AND INTERPRET TRIBAL NAMES WRONG, OR THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR OF THE REFRENCE MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT HE WAS TOLD AND GOT IT WRONG. MISTAKES ARE MADE, THINGS ARE OMITTED IN ALL REFRENCES. WE JUST HAVE TO DO THE BEST WE CAN WITH THE REFRENCES THAT ARE AVAILABLE AND IN A LANGUAGE WE CAN READ

25th January 2011, 10:00 AM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Here is a bonus reference btw, a kampilan with twist core. Michael Attached Images

25th January 2011, 06:50 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	Thanks Michael, what a nice piece. Not often that one sees twistcore on a kampilan let alone a Moro piece.