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18th August 2007, 09:00 PM
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#1 | |
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Member
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Posts: 951
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Quote:
Michael Evan s did not study the indonesian and Borneo swordhandle s Only the malay people as far as I can see and it is also relevant wich time they study because 20 years difference make s a lot off differens between the aerea wich what was going on and there where also sulu s living in the North part off Borneo . I can t find nothing that he mean sundajaks that they are Dusun otherwise he would call them like it. He is the only one that pictured the handle off the rare parang sankit . I cannot find that in Evans books . The Ethnographic Classification of the Dusun-Speaking Peoples of Northern Borneo George N. Appell, Robert Harrison Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Apr., 1969), pp. 212-227 doi:10.2307/3772983 Ben Last edited by Dajak; 18th August 2007 at 10:03 PM. |
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19th August 2007, 12:52 AM
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#2 | |||
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Member
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Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,637
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Hi Ben,
Quote:
Evans based his research both on older local sources as well as field studies among the different tribes. Visiting villages and interviewing f.i. swordmakers about what weapons they produced and what weapons their ancestors produced. He also researched what weapons that were used by the different tribes and where they came from if not locally made. Evans' book is focused on in depth describing the Dusuns (p. 79 - 193) and the Bajau & Illanuns (p. 194 - 273). Quote:
Badjohs is probably Bajaus. Tumbonoas is probably Tambatuan (which isn't a tribe but a district inhabitated by the Dusun tribe) and I find it quite probable that Sun is Dusun. The reason for that is that no other source I have read about dayak tribes in North Borneo mentions the existence of any tribe named Sun. If it exists, or ever existed, please give me a reference for this and I will of course change my conclusion? I have gone through the major 6 works on Sabah Dayak tribes but found nothing on any tribe called Sun. Also it would be extremely strange if Sonne didn't include the Dusun when describing major tribes in ex-British North Borneo? That would be like neglecting Iban if describing tribes in Sarawak. The reason Evans don't mention Parang Sangkit is that he doesn't write about the Muruts in his book. Hein isn't 100% impressing on this as he isn't sure if the Sangkit is from Borneo or Sulu (see p. 343) ... Quote:
What's interesting is that Evans describes the weapons of Dusun as "largely procured from other tribes". He lists the pida (barong), the pedang, parang ilang/gayang and sundang/serundang/kris as the Dusun swords - not the kampilan. In the Bajau & Illanun weapon descriptions he writes (p. 253-254): "...while the long Illanun sword, the kompilan, with its curiously carved and flattened handle, and its blade, narrow near the hilt, but broad and heavy at the point, came from Mindanao, the place of origin of the Illanuns themselves. Types of handle and blade somewhat similar to that of the kompilan are, however, found in islands farther to the east, notably Celebes and Timor." Michael |
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19th August 2007, 05:52 AM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 951
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Hi Michael
The Murut s was an large group off people from North Borneo so Evans did only a very small aerea of North Borneo and as you can read is that by travalling there people make mistakes so why is Evans right and the others that study and and visit long time before Evans are wrong . Hein make an study same as Zonneveld did . Take a look at the pakayuns they larger that any mandau or parang from North Borneo how could it be Evan did not see it ???  Can you explain that to me .  Ben Last edited by Dajak; 19th August 2007 at 06:15 AM. |
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19th August 2007, 10:08 AM
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#4 |
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Member
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Location: Sweden
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Hi Ben,
We are discussing the Kampilan and Borneo tribes that used the Kampilan. I don't mind discussing the Murut but then I think it's more proper that we should do it in another thread than this. 1. Are you claiming that studying the Murut shares some insight in the distribution and use of the Kampilan in North Borneo? 2. Ling Roth is one of the 6 sources I have used to see if there ever existed a tribe called the Sun Dayak. Ling Roth lists all tribes and sub-tribes in detail but doesn't mention the Sun Dayaks. Have you fund any proof of that there ever existed a tribe in North Borneo named Sun, unless it's another name of the Dusun? 3. Of course nobody is perfect but in what way is Evans wrong regarding Kampilan and Dusun vs Bajau & Illanun? Studying from other sources alone, like Hein and van Zonneveld, is of course dependant on the quality of the sources and the understanding of them. There is often a higher risk of misunderstandings than doing your own research on the field, as Evans did. The same for us two (even if I have at least visited North Borneo twice and met the tribes IRL, but unfortunately after they stopped using the Kampilan.). Michael Last edited by VVV; 19th August 2007 at 10:19 AM. |
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19th August 2007, 10:35 AM
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#5 |
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Member
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Posts: 951
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Hi Michael what I am trying to say that it is mostly time blocks like 1800-1825
1825-1850 in movement and changes like from kampilan / mandau to gun . ....tribes disapear ..... ....new tribes coming ..... So that is always difficult I never visit Borneo but now a little bit more about the mandau Jimpul than most off the people that live there (Because now they make shows overthere to please the tourist people)so that is no excuse If some one has been there or not it is only an time moment ( I did visit bali in 2001 and in 2006 and did see a lot off difference in only 5 years , what you think there will more difference if I wait 25 years . The best mandau Jimpuls Kampilans are out side Borneo / Philipine why the wood from the old mandau or kampilan suvived because they where taken early from there) Stone did thell the kampilan is used bij the seadajaks he might have seen a few with kampilan s it is also not sure if the kampilan find his roots in the philipine we do not now 100 % maybe it was coming from celebes timor and developt bij the philipine people there is not 100% proof. It is always hard to find out the right tings mostly many idea s and if Evans say so maybe hein tell different but who to believe . (maybe we want Evans to belive because we like his story but is it true Evans did go out by him self Hein did take a few people that have been there and study so I am like more a few people telling somthing than only stay with one person .) And if we take a look at the map we can see that Evans not get an great area because he would have seen that the murut s are there would also tell some about the murut s . some pic s off my kampilan I think this one is from Boneo Ben Last edited by Dajak; 19th August 2007 at 10:55 AM. |
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19th August 2007, 10:47 AM
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#6 |
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Member
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Location: Sweden
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Hi Ben,
Thanks for your response and I agree with a lot of it, but not all. Maybe we should focus on one question at the time. Have you found any evidence of that there ever existed a dayak tribe called the Sun in North Borneo, unless it's another name for the Dusun? Michael |
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19th August 2007, 12:02 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 951
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It could be that they live in an area where the sunbear was seen but I will search.
I found it you are right the Sundajak also now by the name off Dusun so Dr Sonne who lived a long time with these people at the Marudubai . So no reason to doubt what Hein tells about these weapons. read hein 348. He also write that some off these piece s where found at market s in Madrid in 1892 So Sundajak as name is right . ben Last edited by Dajak; 19th August 2007 at 12:16 PM. |
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30th October 2008, 05:00 AM
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#8 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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I AM NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS YOU GUYS AS FAR AS KNOWLEGE OF THESE THINGS.
 BUT IT SEEMS TO ME A GOOD PALCE TO LOOK FOR FURTHER INFORMATION MIGHT BE ANTHROPOLIGICAL STUDIES. DUE TO THE STUDIES DONE ON THE POLYNESIANS THEY HAVE TRACKED THEIR MOVEMENTS FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND THRU TIME. IF STUDIES HAVE BEEN DONE IN YOUR AREA OF THE WORLD IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO TRACK SEVERAL WAVES OF MIGRATION TO AND FROM PLACES AND PERHAPS THRU LUCK AND ARTEFACTS PIECE TOGETHER A POSSIBLE ORIGIN FOR KAMPILIAN TYPE WEAPONS AS WELL AS OTHERS. YOU WOULD ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AS FAR BACK IN TIME AS TO WHEN IRON AND THE TECKNOLOGY TO WORK IT AS WELL AS WHEN TRADERS FROM MORE ADVANCED SOCIETYS CAME INTO THE AREA. CHOPPER TYPE BLADES WERE AROUND VERY EARLY IN CHINA AND INDIA AND THEY WERE SEA FARING TRADERS. THEY MAY HAVE ESTABLISHED TRADE IN BORNEO AND THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE ANY OTHERS OR ONE OF THE WAVES OF IMIGRATION MAY HAVE BROUGHT THE FORM IN. AS TO WHY ONE TRIBE MIGHT BE IGNORED OR LEFT OUT OF A REFRENCE WORK, 1.TIME AND MONEY IS GENERALLY VERY LIMITED. 2. IF YOU ARE SEEN AS A FRIEND OF AN ENEMY TRIBE YOU WILL NOT BE WELCOME. 3. PERHAPS ANOTHER TRIP TO COVER WHAT WAS MISSED THE FIRST TIME WAS PLANNED BUT FOR LIFE'S MANY REASONS WAS NEVER DONE. 4. YOU RELY ON REFRENCES WHICH MAY BE IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE AND INTERPRET TRIBAL NAMES WRONG, OR THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR OF THE REFRENCE MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT HE WAS TOLD AND GOT IT WRONG. MISTAKES ARE MADE, THINGS ARE OMITTED IN ALL REFRENCES.  WE JUST HAVE TO DO THE BEST WE CAN WITH THE REFRENCES THAT ARE AVAILABLE AND IN A LANGUAGE WE CAN READ
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25th January 2011, 09:50 AM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,637
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Raiders of the Sulu Sea - Documentary
I just found this very interesting documentary that sheds some more light on the Illanun tribe and why you find kampilan etc. also on Borneo.
It has Swedish subtitles but it's recorded in English: http://www.ur.se/play/161129 Unfortunately they obviously didn't employ any weapon experts but still nice to see the Kalis, Barong and Kampilan presented on TV as well as them being used in action. Happy watching for all Moro collectors! Michael |
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