Persian Shamshir with Turkish Hilt

ALEX · 16th August 2007, 06:37 PM

Rand,
These are very nice swords. AssadAllah and Shah Abbas stamps are typical combination indicating a maker (most probably a School) and a ruling principal. The pitting on a crossguard is a nice indication of it's age

As for the line at the ridge of the blade: Yes, many wootz shamshirs have it!!!!! It indicates a last fold when the sword was made. My personal guess is that the maker's intention was to show that the blade was indeed folded (as to proove the process). I can see them saying to the buyer: "Look, it was folded 1000 times, and this is the last fold line"

Just like modern dealers say: "Look, it is hand made". An inlay could have been added for decoration purposes, and/or to protect the opening from dust, debree... and blood

Again, purely my guess.
Very nice collection. Do these swords have any scabbards?

rand · 16th August 2007, 07:24 PM

Hello Alex,

Neither of the two shamshirs pictured in the photo have a scabbard. However, the shamshir with the wider quillons had a sister sword, that on the pommel was "Keeper of the Gate" (Farsi?) inlaid in gold and it had a scabbard with two suspension rings mount with identical decoration, that sword hung in the Turkish manner at a 90 degree angle.

If I had some period quality suspension ring mounts would certainly have scabbards made to house these two swords.

rand

ward · 16th August 2007, 08:20 PM

Lot of good shamshir info in this articel ok to print out

http://users.rcn.com/wardc/scan2.tif

ward

rand · 16th August 2007, 11:32 PM

Hey Ward,

Thanks for posting Olivers article. Have a feeling that article has some age, believe Olivers opinion about when shamshir was developed would be earlier now. Was surprised he said beginning of 17th century. Know Oliver had a shamshir dated in the 1590's twenty five years ago. There are now shamshirs known with earlier art designs on blade suggesting at least an early 16th century date for the designs on blade. Also Zaki go's even further, saying the long, thicker wedge section, shallow curved blade devoped was 1500-1650.

rand

ward · 17th August 2007, 01:19 AM

I will email Mr. Pinchot and ask him.

rand · 17th August 2007, 02:30 AM

Tell Oliver I said hi.....

rand

ward · 17th August 2007, 08:03 PM

Reply--

Ward,

I do stand by the data contained in the article. Dating the origin of the shamshir is a difficult process which by its nature cannot be considered precise-- even dated examples show considerable variance, as noted in the frequency distribution applied to blades signed Assad Allah in Mayer's work on p. 7.
As for the shamshir you mentioned, the blade was very heavy, deeply curved and of wedge section with a relatively active pattern of silver-gray contrast. Its inscription was tiny and since the digits were worn, magnification from a number of angles was required in order to read it accurately. Ultimately it proved to be from the early 1620s.

O.P.

16th August 2007, 06:37 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	An Oclusion (FOLD LINE) Rand, These are very nice swords. AssadAllah and Shah Abbas stamps are typical combination indicating a maker (most probably a School) and a ruling principal. The pitting on a crossguard is a nice indication of it's age As for the line at the ridge of the blade: Yes, many wootz shamshirs have it!!!!! It indicates a last fold when the sword was made. My personal guess is that the maker's intention was to show that the blade was indeed folded (as to proove the process). I can see them saying to the buyer: "Look, it was folded 1000 times, and this is the last fold line" Just like modern dealers say: "Look, it is hand made". An inlay could have been added for decoration purposes, and/or to protect the opening from dust, debree... and blood Again, purely my guess. Very nice collection. Do these swords have any scabbards?

16th August 2007, 07:24 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Scabbards Hello Alex, Neither of the two shamshirs pictured in the photo have a scabbard. However, the shamshir with the wider quillons had a sister sword, that on the pommel was "Keeper of the Gate" (Farsi?) inlaid in gold and it had a scabbard with two suspension rings mount with identical decoration, that sword hung in the Turkish manner at a 90 degree angle. If I had some period quality suspension ring mounts would certainly have scabbards made to house these two swords. rand

16th August 2007, 11:32 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Shanshir Article Hey Ward, Thanks for posting Olivers article. Have a feeling that article has some age, believe Olivers opinion about when shamshir was developed would be earlier now. Was surprised he said beginning of 17th century. Know Oliver had a shamshir dated in the 1590's twenty five years ago. There are now shamshirs known with earlier art designs on blade suggesting at least an early 16th century date for the designs on blade. Also Zaki go's even further, saying the long, thicker wedge section, shallow curved blade devoped was 1500-1650. rand

17th August 2007, 02:30 AM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Tell Oliver hi... Tell Oliver I said hi..... rand

16th August 2007, 08:20 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Lot of good shamshir info in this articel ok to print out http://users.rcn.com/wardc/scan2.tif ward

17th August 2007, 01:19 AM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I will email Mr. Pinchot and ask him.

17th August 2007, 08:03 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Reply-- Ward, I do stand by the data contained in the article. Dating the origin of the shamshir is a difficult process which by its nature cannot be considered precise-- even dated examples show considerable variance, as noted in the frequency distribution applied to blades signed Assad Allah in Mayer's work on p. 7. As for the shamshir you mentioned, the blade was very heavy, deeply curved and of wedge section with a relatively active pattern of silver-gray contrast. Its inscription was tiny and since the digits were worn, magnification from a number of angles was required in order to read it accurately. Ultimately it proved to be from the early 1620s. O.P.