Can we call this a rapier blade ?

Marc · 13th August 2007, 01:52 PM

Hi, Fernando.

What you have there seems to be a late "rapier" blade. Period would go from late 17th to mid- late 18th c. In its actual shape, without ricasso (the unsharpened, and in fact normally rectangular-ish in section, portion between the tang and the actual blade), this piece is intended to be mounted in a early smallsword hilt, taking here the term "smallsword" in its widest sense, and keeping into account that in Spain rapiers were still in use until the 18th c, when everybody else in Western Europe had adopted the smallsword. In this context, and in the years after the Bourbon dynasty took the Spanish throne (after the 1700-1714 War of Succession) introducing a lot of French uses in the court and in the country, many wore swords with rapier blades and smallsword hilts, not to mention some military regulation patterns that kept wearing rapier-ish blades until the end of the 18th.c. This blade could be from any point in this period. And it could either be a blade already made to fit this kind of hilts, or a re-conversion of an earlier blade, but I think that the first case is the most likely.
The technical quality of this blade is not very high (look at the wavy fullers), although very probably is perfectly suitable, function-wise. It's probably made in Solingen, where a lot of these were made to supply Spanish, European and colonial markets, including counterfeit marks with the names of famous swordmakers an prestigious places of origin, being very likely the case here. Tomas de Ayala was a 16th c. Toledo maker, and his name is one of the most easily found in this kind of blades, but he died in 1583 (... IIRC, quoting from memory, but if not, it was around that), and this blade is clearly later, and of a quality that it would have never left the workshop of such a Master Artisan with his name in it.
This "counterfeiting" is a quite usual phenomenon in blades coming from Germany in that period, think in the "Andrea Ferrara" blades being supplied to England and Scotland that are today found with such prevalence in baskethilt broad-and backswords, many with misspellings, as happens with "Toledo" marked swords. I never thought to this kind of trade as an attempt to fool but the most candid of customers, but more as the kind of market that satisfies the demand today for the likes of "Rolex" watches and "Gucci" handbags at popular prices in street market stalls or Hong-Kong shops.
In any event, at that price, Fernando, it is an EXCELLENT buy, believe me, and it is in a very good state of conservation. A gentle cleaning to remove any active rust, and you'll have here a nice bit of history that at some point was mounted as a sword, and who knows through how many things has gone through. In a more personal note, to my eyes, this is an honest soldier, not an officer, maybe (although I wouldn't really bet against it, I've seen some of those in officer swords), but, without doubt, a warrior.

fernando · 13th August 2007, 03:08 PM

Hi Marc,
Much obliged for the authentic treatise.
Its amazing how famous names and their consequent image have been "abused" since long time ago untill recent days. I am aware that at least in some cases, the misspelling of names was not due to ignorance but a resource to prevent the law to process you for counterfeit. It just comes to my mind the famous Spanish blue jeans maker "LOIS", which had a Portuguese imitator that marked the jeans with the brand "LOES". Up to a certain extent the popular Spanish motor car SEAT is much too similar in sound to its Italian originated FIAT, pass the coincidence. Not to speak of Zara ( the clothes company ), which has all possible misspellings in shops around here ( and possibly Spain ) to take advantage of that enterprise's image.
I am still glad that my blade is actual very old stuff, although with a forged name. In a way, like in coins and stamps, period abnormalities have their own added value

.
Now i will go digest all your teachings on the blade subject.
Un gran saludo.
fernando

Jim McDougall · 14th August 2007, 05:34 AM

Marc,
Eloquently written and beautifully said!!! This blade was indeed a warrior, and you have presented an excellent history for it. Thank you for going into such detail concerning these blades. While I knew the 18th century 'dragoon' blades we have discussed many times concerning Spanish colonial swords and with the famed 'Spanish motto' indeed came from Solingen, I had not thought of these having the same origins.
I learn more on these swords every time you write and was looking forward to your response

Thanks again!
Very best regards,
Jim

Chris Evans · 14th August 2007, 07:17 AM

Hi Fernando,

Many thanks for that information. Sent you a PM

Cheers
Chris

13th August 2007, 03:08 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	MOLTES GRÀCIES Hi Marc, Much obliged for the authentic treatise. Its amazing how famous names and their consequent image have been "abused" since long time ago untill recent days. I am aware that at least in some cases, the misspelling of names was not due to ignorance but a resource to prevent the law to process you for counterfeit. It just comes to my mind the famous Spanish blue jeans maker "LOIS", which had a Portuguese imitator that marked the jeans with the brand "LOES". Up to a certain extent the popular Spanish motor car SEAT is much too similar in sound to its Italian originated FIAT, pass the coincidence. Not to speak of Zara ( the clothes company ), which has all possible misspellings in shops around here ( and possibly Spain ) to take advantage of that enterprise's image. I am still glad that my blade is actual very old stuff, although with a forged name. In a way, like in coins and stamps, period abnormalities have their own added value . Now i will go digest all your teachings on the blade subject. Un gran saludo. fernando Last edited by fernando; 14th August 2007 at 11:31 AM. Reason: Words addition

13th August 2007, 01:52 PM	#1
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Hi, Fernando. What you have there seems to be a late "rapier" blade. Period would go from late 17th to mid- late 18th c. In its actual shape, without ricasso (the unsharpened, and in fact normally rectangular-ish in section, portion between the tang and the actual blade), this piece is intended to be mounted in a early smallsword hilt, taking here the term "smallsword" in its widest sense, and keeping into account that in Spain rapiers were still in use until the 18th c, when everybody else in Western Europe had adopted the smallsword. In this context, and in the years after the Bourbon dynasty took the Spanish throne (after the 1700-1714 War of Succession) introducing a lot of French uses in the court and in the country, many wore swords with rapier blades and smallsword hilts, not to mention some military regulation patterns that kept wearing rapier-ish blades until the end of the 18th.c. This blade could be from any point in this period. And it could either be a blade already made to fit this kind of hilts, or a re-conversion of an earlier blade, but I think that the first case is the most likely. The technical quality of this blade is not very high (look at the wavy fullers), although very probably is perfectly suitable, function-wise. It's probably made in Solingen, where a lot of these were made to supply Spanish, European and colonial markets, including counterfeit marks with the names of famous swordmakers an prestigious places of origin, being very likely the case here. Tomas de Ayala was a 16th c. Toledo maker, and his name is one of the most easily found in this kind of blades, but he died in 1583 (... IIRC, quoting from memory, but if not, it was around that), and this blade is clearly later, and of a quality that it would have never left the workshop of such a Master Artisan with his name in it. This "counterfeiting" is a quite usual phenomenon in blades coming from Germany in that period, think in the "Andrea Ferrara" blades being supplied to England and Scotland that are today found with such prevalence in baskethilt broad-and backswords, many with misspellings, as happens with "Toledo" marked swords. I never thought to this kind of trade as an attempt to fool but the most candid of customers, but more as the kind of market that satisfies the demand today for the likes of "Rolex" watches and "Gucci" handbags at popular prices in street market stalls or Hong-Kong shops. In any event, at that price, Fernando, it is an EXCELLENT buy, believe me, and it is in a very good state of conservation. A gentle cleaning to remove any active rust, and you'll have here a nice bit of history that at some point was mounted as a sword, and who knows through how many things has gone through. In a more personal note, to my eyes, this is an honest soldier, not an officer, maybe (although I wouldn't really bet against it, I've seen some of those in officer swords), but, without doubt, a warrior.

14th August 2007, 05:34 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Marc, Eloquently written and beautifully said!!! This blade was indeed a warrior, and you have presented an excellent history for it. Thank you for going into such detail concerning these blades. While I knew the 18th century 'dragoon' blades we have discussed many times concerning Spanish colonial swords and with the famed 'Spanish motto' indeed came from Solingen, I had not thought of these having the same origins. I learn more on these swords every time you write and was looking forward to your response Thanks again! Very best regards, Jim

14th August 2007, 07:17 AM	#4
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Fernando, Many thanks for that information. Sent you a PM Cheers Chris