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Jim McDougall · 9th August 2007, 08:54 PM

Hi Fernando,
I must say this pistol you have posted is, as always with your items! most interesting and I am learning quite a lot on these firearms from your continued research and Berkeleys notes. I just received the current Bonhams catalog from London and item #422 is a flintlock 'turnoff' pistol by North, Royal Exchange, London c.1750. While the pistol is in most regards similar with longer barrel, what is most interesting is the same style silver wire foliate scrollwork on the butt.
Edward North is listed as Master of the Gunmakers Company in 1753 and 1758, and armourer to the Honourable Artillery Company. He is also shown as furbisher of arms to London bankers. Perhaps this smaller gun was made as a protection pistol for one of these bankers in the smaller size and as you note for a 'night pistol' . Sort of a pocket shotgun?

I wish I could scan the photo to post, but the scrollwork is compellingly like that seen on this North pistol. The auction took place July 25,2007 at Bonhams www.bonhams.com

Incidentally, what does the term 'turnoff pistol' mean"?

I hope this helps.

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 9th August 2007, 10:10 PM

Hi Jim
Thanks a lot for your ( allways simpathetic ) input.
Turn off barrel, or screw off barrel.
It means that the barrel is not an entire piece, but divided in two sections. The advantage is that, when you screw it off, almost all cilindrical part comes out, leaving a chamber just after the breech, where you can place a bullit a little wider than the actual barrel bore ( caliber ) increasing the shooting pressure and therefore improving the direction accuracy. When bullits are ramed through the barrel muzzel, they have to be narrower than the actual bore, for a couple reasons ( this difference being called vento=wind ) decreasing the said pressure and consequent precision.
I hope i made myself understood.
Kin regards
fernando

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2007, 10:41 PM

Hi Fernando,
Thanks so much for the explanation, I really appreciate better understanding these terms.
Best regards,
Jim

Berkley · 10th August 2007, 02:13 AM

Jim,
Here is a little pistol which illustrates several points that Fernando has raised. This is a screw-barrel or turn-off barrel pistol opened to show the position of the ball. As Fernando says, this forms a tight seal in the bore by using an oversized lead ball of greater than bore diameter, which eliminates the “windage” necessary to push a ball down the barrel from the muzzle with a ramrod, and makes a relatively high-powered small pistol. This particular pistol is of later manufacture, common design, and decidedly inferior workmanship to Fernando's elegant example. Although marked “London”, it in fact has Birmingham proof marks. It is also marked H Nock, although that famous London maker would not have turned out anything of this rough quality. (In any event, he died before the Birmingham proof house was established). In short, it’s an English pistol that was intentionally mismarked when made to deceive the original buyer with a spurious claim of greater quality than it possessed, or as Fernando says, "increase the image of the product".

Berkley

Jim McDougall · 10th August 2007, 03:02 AM

Outstanding Berkley!! Thank you so much for the excellent presentation!
I know that I very much enjoy learning more on early firearms, a topic I admittedly have always sidestepped in studying weapons.
Nicely done and much appreciated.

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 10th August 2007, 03:17 PM

Excelent,Berkley.
The clearest way to show it.
Eventualy the examples i have within this area, would not be good for such demonstration.
One has a similar shape and decoration, although of poorer quality, without any maker or proof marks, but with a fix barrel.
The other is a Liege marked one, with a screwing facility that is stuck and, despite all reasonal efforts, i could never unscrew it. I think this happens often with this system or, at least, i have already came across with a few cases in the Net.

fernando · 10th August 2007, 04:06 PM

Although not entirely an idiomatic expression,the term sympathetic used in this context might sound unfamiliar to those who are used to see it envolved with clinic language

.
We have a second and surely more popular use for this term in Portuguese ( and other Latin languages ).
What i mean about Jim postings is that they are pleasant and fair ...as well as peacemaking

.
fernando

10th August 2007, 03:17 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Excelent,Berkley. The clearest way to show it. Eventualy the examples i have within this area, would not be good for such demonstration. One has a similar shape and decoration, although of poorer quality, without any maker or proof marks, but with a fix barrel. The other is a Liege marked one, with a screwing facility that is stuck and, despite all reasonal efforts, i could never unscrew it. I think this happens often with this system or, at least, i have already came across with a few cases in the Net. Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 10th August 2007 at 03:32 PM.

10th August 2007, 04:06 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	TRADUTORE TRADITORE Although not entirely an idiomatic expression,the term sympathetic used in this context might sound unfamiliar to those who are used to see it envolved with clinic language . We have a second and surely more popular use for this term in Portuguese ( and other Latin languages ). What i mean about Jim postings is that they are pleasant and fair ...as well as peacemaking . fernando Last edited by fernando; 11th August 2007 at 12:35 AM.

9th August 2007, 08:54 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Hi Fernando, I must say this pistol you have posted is, as always with your items! most interesting and I am learning quite a lot on these firearms from your continued research and Berkeleys notes. I just received the current Bonhams catalog from London and item #422 is a flintlock 'turnoff' pistol by North, Royal Exchange, London c.1750. While the pistol is in most regards similar with longer barrel, what is most interesting is the same style silver wire foliate scrollwork on the butt. Edward North is listed as Master of the Gunmakers Company in 1753 and 1758, and armourer to the Honourable Artillery Company. He is also shown as furbisher of arms to London bankers. Perhaps this smaller gun was made as a protection pistol for one of these bankers in the smaller size and as you note for a 'night pistol' . Sort of a pocket shotgun? I wish I could scan the photo to post, but the scrollwork is compellingly like that seen on this North pistol. The auction took place July 25,2007 at Bonhams www.bonhams.com Incidentally, what does the term 'turnoff pistol' mean"? I hope this helps. All best regards, Jim

9th August 2007, 10:10 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim Thanks a lot for your ( allways simpathetic ) input. Turn off barrel, or screw off barrel. It means that the barrel is not an entire piece, but divided in two sections. The advantage is that, when you screw it off, almost all cilindrical part comes out, leaving a chamber just after the breech, where you can place a bullit a little wider than the actual barrel bore ( caliber ) increasing the shooting pressure and therefore improving the direction accuracy. When bullits are ramed through the barrel muzzel, they have to be narrower than the actual bore, for a couple reasons ( this difference being called vento=wind ) decreasing the said pressure and consequent precision. I hope i made myself understood. Kin regards fernando

9th August 2007, 10:41 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Hi Fernando, Thanks so much for the explanation, I really appreciate better understanding these terms. Best regards, Jim

10th August 2007, 02:13 AM	#4
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Jim, Here is a little pistol which illustrates several points that Fernando has raised. This is a screw-barrel or turn-off barrel pistol opened to show the position of the ball. As Fernando says, this forms a tight seal in the bore by using an oversized lead ball of greater than bore diameter, which eliminates the “windage” necessary to push a ball down the barrel from the muzzle with a ramrod, and makes a relatively high-powered small pistol. This particular pistol is of later manufacture, common design, and decidedly inferior workmanship to Fernando's elegant example. Although marked “London”, it in fact has Birmingham proof marks. It is also marked H Nock, although that famous London maker would not have turned out anything of this rough quality. (In any event, he died before the Birmingham proof house was established). In short, it’s an English pistol that was intentionally mismarked when made to deceive the original buyer with a spurious claim of greater quality than it possessed, or as Fernando says, "increase the image of the product". Berkley Attached Images

10th August 2007, 03:02 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Outstanding Berkley!! Thank you so much for the excellent presentation! I know that I very much enjoy learning more on early firearms, a topic I admittedly have always sidestepped in studying weapons. Nicely done and much appreciated. All best regards, Jim