Arms and Numismatics

rand · 8th August 2007, 07:14 PM

Hi Olikara,

A pleasure to read your post about coins. This is one area underused so far in the study of arms, have been comparing Islamic coins to get inferences on datable calligraphy examples to add another piece to the puzzle in trying to determine time periods.

The weapon in the coin appears to have the proportions of a dagger. With another breath I imagine if a coin maker made the right proportions to display a sword it would three dimensionally be shallow and wear quickly.

Thanks for making your comparisons, insightful...

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 8th August 2007, 08:28 PM

Hi Olikara,

It is a very interesting thing you have started, showing the old Indian coins – thank you. The pictures from the coins give a time, when the weapons were used, although they, in some cases, can be difficult to recognise, and in some cases they also shows weapon types not usually recognised as being used in that area – very interesting.

If you have more coins, please show them

.

Jens

olikara · 9th August 2007, 04:10 AM

Jim, Thank you for the encouraging comments.

Rand, Yes the icon does look like a dagger when looked from a proportional perspective. However, it is the hilt construction that leaves me in doubt.

Jens, here are snaps of 2 more coins with weapons depicted on them. Both are from Mysore and from Haidar Ali's period (1722-1782 A.D.).

First is a Gold Mohur (often called Pagoda) depicting the Hindu Gods Shiva and his consort Parvati. Haidar though Muslim was very liberal when it came to depicting Hindu symbols on his coins. Observe Shiva holding a Trident (Trishul) in his hand (9 'O' Clock Position). The coin weighs 3.4 grams.

Again, there is a copper coin where Haidar depicts a battle axe on one side. Hope you find these coins interesting.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2007, 01:38 PM

Interesting coins you are showing, although it took me some time before i could see what was on the gold coin. The Hindu numerals used on coins and elsewhere can look quite differently according to the dialect spoken at the place, but does the numerals also give an indication of the time when they were used?

On a tulwar, I have, there is a square mark which I can’t figure out, can you?

spiral · 9th August 2007, 05:01 PM

Great thread, on the same & similar theme heres some old Nepali coins featuring Khanda, trident & of course kukri.

& a few {more recent.]stamps as well.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2007, 07:14 PM

Hello Olikara,
As you can see your post on coins is indeed very well placed, and it was very kind of you to acknowledge my comments. On the coins you posted, the one with the battle axe......it has been my impression that these crescent head axes had primarily ceremonial or parade weapon application and were of course symbols of authority . This would seem to be the case with the axe shown on a coin, the one shown corresponding to 18th century examples considered Rajput, often carrying Hindu decorative motif.

It has been suggested it seems that the crescent shape may have associations with the moon, and I have wondered if that symbolism may actually be considered valid in the case of the shape of this form of axe head. My curiosity of course doubles in the case of double crescent axe heads !

Spiral, great coins, and stamps you have added! While the stamps are of course a modern concept, these are very nice examples! Its most interesting to see weapons posted on stamps with all the P.C. paranoia of today! Can you imagine any kind of a weapon being shown on a stamp in the west?

Having said that, it comes to mind that the Roman fasces, which often appears of course in symbolism on coins, and many other key symbolic elements, was in fact a ceremonial axe attached to a bundle of reeds, and represented authority as well as political freedom.

Although most of what we are discussing here concerns the appearance of the images of weapon forms in the motif on coins, it is important to note that other motif from coins is often key in identifying markings on weapons. In one instance on an Afghan sword of latter 19th century carried a stamped arsenal cartouche which was the image of the mosque at Mazir i Sharif , and was identical to the same image found on coins minted in that period. In the weapons of regulation military, typically in the last few centuries, the royal cyphers, shapes of crowns and varied regalia etc. that are found on minted coins often assist in dating and identifying period of the weapon.

In an interesting turnabout, in the case of many ethnographic weapons, it is not unusual to see coins attached to the weapons. For example in Arabia coins are sometimes imbedded into repousse silver motif in the hilt of janbiyya. In Ethiopia there are often coins attached to the pommels of shotel and in associated regions similar practice occurs. In the latter 19th century it seems that pesos were sometimes nailed to the pommel of sabres carried by the Rurales (much in the same manner as seen on Ethiopian shotels).

This really has opened a fascinating perspective on the association between the study of antique weapons and nusimatics, and I really look forward to other examples!!

Thank you very much guys!

All best regards,
Jim

8th August 2007, 07:14 PM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Dagger? Sword? on the coin...... Hi Olikara, A pleasure to read your post about coins. This is one area underused so far in the study of arms, have been comparing Islamic coins to get inferences on datable calligraphy examples to add another piece to the puzzle in trying to determine time periods. The weapon in the coin appears to have the proportions of a dagger. With another breath I imagine if a coin maker made the right proportions to display a sword it would three dimensionally be shallow and wear quickly. Thanks for making your comparisons, insightful... rand

8th August 2007, 08:28 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Olikara, It is a very interesting thing you have started, showing the old Indian coins – thank you. The pictures from the coins give a time, when the weapons were used, although they, in some cases, can be difficult to recognise, and in some cases they also shows weapon types not usually recognised as being used in that area – very interesting. If you have more coins, please show them. Jens

9th August 2007, 04:10 AM	#3
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 102	Mysore Coins - Trident and Battle Axe Jim, Thank you for the encouraging comments. Rand, Yes the icon does look like a dagger when looked from a proportional perspective. However, it is the hilt construction that leaves me in doubt. Jens, here are snaps of 2 more coins with weapons depicted on them. Both are from Mysore and from Haidar Ali's period (1722-1782 A.D.). First is a Gold Mohur (often called Pagoda) depicting the Hindu Gods Shiva and his consort Parvati. Haidar though Muslim was very liberal when it came to depicting Hindu symbols on his coins. Observe Shiva holding a Trident (Trishul) in his hand (9 'O' Clock Position). The coin weighs 3.4 grams. Again, there is a copper coin where Haidar depicts a battle axe on one side. Hope you find these coins interesting. Attached Images

9th August 2007, 01:38 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting coins you are showing, although it took me some time before i could see what was on the gold coin. The Hindu numerals used on coins and elsewhere can look quite differently according to the dialect spoken at the place, but does the numerals also give an indication of the time when they were used? On a tulwar, I have, there is a square mark which I can’t figure out, can you? Attached Images

9th August 2007, 05:01 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Great thread, on the same & similar theme heres some old Nepali coins featuring Khanda, trident & of course kukri. & a few {more recent.]stamps as well. Spiral

9th August 2007, 07:14 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hello Olikara, As you can see your post on coins is indeed very well placed, and it was very kind of you to acknowledge my comments. On the coins you posted, the one with the battle axe......it has been my impression that these crescent head axes had primarily ceremonial or parade weapon application and were of course symbols of authority . This would seem to be the case with the axe shown on a coin, the one shown corresponding to 18th century examples considered Rajput, often carrying Hindu decorative motif. It has been suggested it seems that the crescent shape may have associations with the moon, and I have wondered if that symbolism may actually be considered valid in the case of the shape of this form of axe head. My curiosity of course doubles in the case of double crescent axe heads ! Spiral, great coins, and stamps you have added! While the stamps are of course a modern concept, these are very nice examples! Its most interesting to see weapons posted on stamps with all the P.C. paranoia of today! Can you imagine any kind of a weapon being shown on a stamp in the west? Having said that, it comes to mind that the Roman fasces, which often appears of course in symbolism on coins, and many other key symbolic elements, was in fact a ceremonial axe attached to a bundle of reeds, and represented authority as well as political freedom. Although most of what we are discussing here concerns the appearance of the images of weapon forms in the motif on coins, it is important to note that other motif from coins is often key in identifying markings on weapons. In one instance on an Afghan sword of latter 19th century carried a stamped arsenal cartouche which was the image of the mosque at Mazir i Sharif , and was identical to the same image found on coins minted in that period. In the weapons of regulation military, typically in the last few centuries, the royal cyphers, shapes of crowns and varied regalia etc. that are found on minted coins often assist in dating and identifying period of the weapon. In an interesting turnabout, in the case of many ethnographic weapons, it is not unusual to see coins attached to the weapons. For example in Arabia coins are sometimes imbedded into repousse silver motif in the hilt of janbiyya. In Ethiopia there are often coins attached to the pommels of shotel and in associated regions similar practice occurs. In the latter 19th century it seems that pesos were sometimes nailed to the pommel of sabres carried by the Rurales (much in the same manner as seen on Ethiopian shotels). This really has opened a fascinating perspective on the association between the study of antique weapons and nusimatics, and I really look forward to other examples!! Thank you very much guys! All best regards, Jim