Ivory hilt dagger with "Tears" and a "Smiley?"

rand · 7th August 2007, 07:52 AM

Indian elephant ivory stays white, fine grained

African elephant ivory turns yellow then brown, fine grained

Walrus ivory (shirmani) turns yellow then brown, mottled or granular

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 7th August 2007, 02:41 PM

Here in an example, and yes, they did import ivory from Africa.

josh stout · 8th August 2007, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Here in an example, and yes, they did import ivory from Africa.

Is it Walrus on the left and African elephant on the right?
Josh

Jens Nordlunde · 8th August 2007, 06:11 PM

Thank you for your answer, but I have never seen walrus ivory look like this before, so I will try to get it checked by a specialist.

rand · 8th August 2007, 07:23 PM

Hey Jens,

From my perspective the dagger on the left would be African elephant ivory and the dagger on the right Indian elephant ivory. would agree they are not walrus ivory as the do no have that "crystaline" appearance at all. Rather a smooth "woodlike' on the dagger grip scales to the left and a milk white appearance to the dagger grip scales on the right.

The use of walrus ivory is very much to the Persian taste. Then, there are exceptions to every rule...

rand

spiral · 8th August 2007, 10:02 PM

If only I knew enough to make a seperate thread worthwhile Rand.

I am just a student myself...

Much ivory coloring is just surface patina or induced through, age & dirt & sweat, tea, smoke ,chicory were often used to colour items or the Chinese favorite for turning it yellow is nose sweat!

Hard heavy white ivory of good quality came from Guinea, cameroons ,Gabon & the Congo. It is what many antique dealers refer to as Indian as it has the same percieved look and qualities of jungle dwelling Elephants of India & Burma. It is the favorite of Oriental carvers as it will polish like glass.

Soft ivory is sometimes veined with darker streaks & used to mainly come from Senegal,Ethiopia, Egypt, Sudan & Kenya. It was popular for Billiard balls & piano keys as it was easy to work.

ill have a look through my libary & notes & see what else I can find on the subject.

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde · 8th August 2007, 10:44 PM

Spiral, I have not as yet been able to ask someone about the ivory, but I have examined it myself, and i am sure that it is elephant ivory. You only had the picture. I have the item, and that makes a difference when it comes to judging the hilt. Any new things you can come up with about the ivory will be most appreciated, as I think what you have come up with yet is great.

Jens

7th August 2007, 07:52 AM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Ivory Indian elephant ivory stays white, fine grained African elephant ivory turns yellow then brown, fine grained Walrus ivory (shirmani) turns yellow then brown, mottled or granular rand

7th August 2007, 02:41 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here in an example, and yes, they did import ivory from Africa. Attached Images

8th August 2007, 07:23 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Jens ivory handled daggers Hey Jens, From my perspective the dagger on the left would be African elephant ivory and the dagger on the right Indian elephant ivory. would agree they are not walrus ivory as the do no have that "crystaline" appearance at all. Rather a smooth "woodlike' on the dagger grip scales to the left and a milk white appearance to the dagger grip scales on the right. The use of walrus ivory is very much to the Persian taste. Then, there are exceptions to every rule... rand

8th August 2007, 06:11 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for your answer, but I have never seen walrus ivory look like this before, so I will try to get it checked by a specialist.

8th August 2007, 10:02 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	If only I knew enough to make a seperate thread worthwhile Rand. I am just a student myself... Much ivory coloring is just surface patina or induced through, age & dirt & sweat, tea, smoke ,chicory were often used to colour items or the Chinese favorite for turning it yellow is nose sweat! Hard heavy white ivory of good quality came from Guinea, cameroons ,Gabon & the Congo. It is what many antique dealers refer to as Indian as it has the same percieved look and qualities of jungle dwelling Elephants of India & Burma. It is the favorite of Oriental carvers as it will polish like glass. Soft ivory is sometimes veined with darker streaks & used to mainly come from Senegal,Ethiopia, Egypt, Sudan & Kenya. It was popular for Billiard balls & piano keys as it was easy to work. ill have a look through my libary & notes & see what else I can find on the subject. Spiral

8th August 2007, 10:44 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Spiral, I have not as yet been able to ask someone about the ivory, but I have examined it myself, and i am sure that it is elephant ivory. You only had the picture. I have the item, and that makes a difference when it comes to judging the hilt. Any new things you can come up with about the ivory will be most appreciated, as I think what you have come up with yet is great. Jens