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Old 6th August 2007, 02:41 AM   #1
Bill M
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Default Datu Ivory Kris

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...:MEWA:IT&ih=011

I did not win this. But I think it is a good time to sell Moro weapons.

Comments?
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Old 6th August 2007, 03:08 AM   #2
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Cool Cash In Now !!!

I agree Bill .

I've decided to sink all my kris dough into a '64 356c just like the one I had when I was a kid; or maybe a '64 Alpha Giulia instead; still trying to make up my mind.

BTW,
That kris; overpriced to say the least; I feel sorry for the last 'investor' out of this market .
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Old 6th August 2007, 03:50 AM   #3
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A nice kris but way over priced. I rather have a wootz shamshir for that money. What I find interesting is that someone with zero feedback goes and spends that kind of money. I hope the seller does not get screwed.


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Old 6th August 2007, 03:56 AM   #4
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Nothing shocks me these days regarding Ebay, BUT, I was surprised this one went so high, especially with a reshaped "tail" to the pommel and a late scabbard it likely was not "born with".
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Old 6th August 2007, 04:50 AM   #5
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Default LOLZ

too funny...............Hoser_McKracken
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Old 6th August 2007, 04:57 AM   #6
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AND THE WINNER IS LETS SEE BIDDER 1 OR 2 OR 3 OR 4 OR 5 OR 6 OR 7 OR 8 OR NINE ? AHA!! ITS BIDDER #4 HOSER MCKRACKIN WITH ZERO FEEDBACK "HOORAY!!)
IT DOES MAKE ONE WONDER
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Old 6th August 2007, 11:00 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I agree Bill .

I've decided to sink all my kris dough into a '64 356c just like the one I had when I was a kid; or maybe a '64 Alpha Giulia instead; still trying to make up my mind.

BTW,
That kris; overpriced to say the least; I feel sorry for the last 'investor' out of this market .


Get the Porsche. Always liked them. Maybe with an ivory gearshift knob?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS
Nothing shocks me these days regarding Ebay, BUT, I was surprised this one went so high, especially with a reshaped "tail" to the pommel and a late scabbard it likely was not "born with".


Agreed, Charles, but also with a few forging flaws in the blade. The kembang kacang and particularly the greneng are not that well done.

I guess ivory goes a long way.

Last edited by Bill Marsh : 6th August 2007 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 6th August 2007, 02:33 PM   #8
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Default High bidder:-(

Hi guys.
This is the message I got from the high bidder.

"hi,
i'm regrettably sorry to inform you that i didn't mean to bid that high on the moro kris. i set my sniper program last week monday for the kris, and totally forgot all about it and gave up when the bid got up to $500.00. after getting off this morning (i work midnite shift), to my surprise and horror, i have an email stating that i won the kris for $2800.00! i was at loss as to what happen. my first inclination is that someone hijacked my user name, and was using it to create havoc. upon further investigation, i found out that i placed $3500.00 on my sniper program instead of $350.00. with that being said, i'm terribly sorry that i can't afford to pay the kris with that kind of money, so if you would please pass up my name. i'm sure whoever is the next highest bidder would be more than happy to acquire it since it's a beautiful and worthy kris.
once again, i'm terribly sorry."

Ebay should not let the new user bid more than $100 till they are proven worthy. This bid can do a lot of harm to me as a seller, with the new undisclosed user rule combine (what is the benefit as this rule? somebody please let me know). Also the second bidder has 11 feedback score:-(

Just needed to say these things as I was not happy this morning receiving this message.
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Old 6th August 2007, 06:36 PM   #9
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Default Tough marketplace without this!

It looks like Hoser_Mckracken failed to make payment...

Is someone out there just to drive up prices on purpose?
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Old 6th August 2007, 07:24 PM   #10
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Talking Cybertage ???

On Ebay ?!?!?!!














I'm shocked ..
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Old 6th August 2007, 08:02 PM   #11
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I hope this dealer did not get hosed. Certainly looks as though he may have been. I think someone, somewhere is always looking to drive up prices on eBay.

Ian

Quote:
Originally Posted by BSMStar
It looks like Hoser_Mckracken failed to make payment...

Is someone out there just to drive up prices on purpose?
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Old 6th August 2007, 08:52 PM   #12
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BELEAVE IT OR NOT THERE ARE THOSE OUT THERE WHO DON'T GIVE A HOOT ABOUT THE SWORDS SPEARS OR ANYTHING ELSE THEY ARE JUST IN IT FOR THE MONEY. THEY LEARN AS MUCH AS THEY CAN THE BETTER TO SELL AND RUNNING UP THE PRICES TO UNHEARD OF HIGHTS WOULD ONLY BE CONSIDERED AS GOOD BUSINESS PRACTICE.
MONEY IS NECESSARY TO HAVE BUT IT IS ONLY PAPER! NO WHERE AS COOL AS EDGED WEAPONS
I REFER TO THOSE WHO ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN WEAPONS TO MAKE A LOT OF MONEY, DON'T EVEN LIKE THEM AND DON'T COLLECT AS HAVING NO SOUL.

I WOULD SEE A GOOD OLD DAYAK MANDAU TO ADD TO MY COLLECTION, THEY WOULD ONLY SEE THE MONEY THEY WILL MAKE WHEN THEY SELL IT.THEIR COLLECTION IS TO SEE HOW BIG A FIGURE THEY CAN ACHIEVE IN THEIR BANK ACCOUNT BEFORE THEY DIE, FOR AS LITTLE AN INVESTMENT AS POSSIBLE A NOBLE GOAL AND SMART STRADGEY NO DOUBT. BUT I DID NOT START COLLECTING FOR THAT REASON BUT JUST TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE SOME INTERESTING THINGS TO COLLECT AND ENJOY, IF I HAPPEN TO MAKE SOME MONEY WHEN I SELL SO MUCH THE BETTER BUT THAT IS NOT THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND MY COLLECTING.
THIS IS NOT A PUT DOWN IT IS JUST MY POINT OF VIEW THEY JUST HAVE A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW. OFTEN THEY ARE DIRVEN A LOT HARDER THAN I AND AQUIRE A LOT MORE KNOWLEGE SO ARE A VALUABLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION IF THEY CHOOSE TO SHARE THEIR KNOWLEGE. I KNOW SOME WHO WILL SHARE THEIR KNOWLEGE AND SOME WHO CONSIDER IT A POWER AND WILL TAKE IT TO THEIR GRAVE RATHER THAN SHARE IT WITH THOSE WHO DID NOT DO THE RESEARCH OR TRACK DOWN THE INFORMATION THEMSELVES. JUST ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW BUT OFTEN AN UNFORTUNATE ONE.

Last edited by VANDOO : 6th August 2007 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 6th August 2007, 09:19 PM   #13
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I would normally (and abnormally ) be interested in this piece but I knew that it would go for ridiculous price. What turned me off was the reconditioned nose. I might have paid a much lower price for a reconditioned nose.......but who knows? (every pun intended )
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Old 6th August 2007, 09:37 PM   #14
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Default Sympathy

I have sympathy for both the Seller and the under bidders on this item. The Seller lost a sale and his time. The Bidders now have their estimates of value known and possibly tied up access on funds to bid on a different item.

No winners here,

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Old 6th August 2007, 10:08 PM   #15
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Just a few random thoughts regarding this auction. I am really sorry for the seller, as he is stuck with eBay's fee, and as far as I recall it is a percentage of the final price. I guess a good precaution by all sellers would be to explicitly warn in the listing that they would accept no bids from 0 feedback users, no exceptions. However, I do not see what a seller can do about snipers (to which I also belong) other than a second-chance offer after the end of the auction. For an item on eBay to close high, at least two high bidders are needed to drive the price up, one cannot do it by himself/herself. I wish there was a rule that made second chance offers binding on the bidder, but even this would not help make sure that noone could drive prices up, for whatever purpose. It seems however that someone is doing exactly this - registering IDs just to drive a sale really high and ruin it for the seller and the rest of the bidders, in ther meantime driving prices for colelctibles as high as possible, and this phenomenon seems to have started after eBay decided to hide bidders' IDs.
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Old 6th August 2007, 11:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
Just a few random thoughts regarding this auction. I am really sorry for the seller, as he is stuck with eBay's fee, and as far as I recall it is a percentage of the final price. I guess a good precaution by all sellers would be to explicitly warn in the listing that they would accept no bids from 0 feedback users, no exceptions. However, I do not see what a seller can do about snipers (to which I also belong) other than a second-chance offer after the end of the auction. Teodor


I still think this is a twist core. I'd clean and stain it and re-market it. A twist core with ivory is a good thing and has some value, regardless of my nit picking in this thread.

I very much feel bad for the seller. I have bought some very good African pieces from him and been pleased with both the quality and the service. Fast shipping and well-packaged.

He should not get stuck with high eBay fees, but will either have to file an NPB (Non Performing Bidder) strike against the bidder, which I would do, but that might provoke a negative FB from a newbie bidder.

Seller and buyer can also agree not to complete the sale. Either way there would be no eBay fee.
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Old 7th August 2007, 09:07 PM   #17
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Default Hurting all of us....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
I hope this dealer did not get hosed. Certainly looks as though he may have been. I think someone, somewhere is always looking to drive up prices on eBay.

Ian


You mean Hosered.

This is just crazy... to have a not overly spectacular layered blade with flaws, rehilted (at least sometime in its history) with ivory… stand back and watch the eBay insanity play out. Not worth the closing price, even as an investment... and to be clear, I am not blaming the seller on this. I'm talking about the shark like insatiable feeding frenzy, even when a minnow is placed in the water.

This is just hurting all of us who are trying to collect for the culture, heritage and history.
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Old 8th August 2007, 12:33 AM   #18
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The buyers got suitable & deserved feedback, but presumably whoever wanted there "rival" piece to sell high, has done well? The second highest bidder & others will have gone elswhere , I expect?

Sadley Arms dealers have not been famous for there morality at any time in history.

{present company & all forum members excepted of course! }

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Old 8th August 2007, 03:18 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Marsh
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...:MEWA:IT&ih=011

I did not win this. But I think it is a good time to sell Moro weapons.

Comments?



i truly hope you were being sarcastic, otherwise all you did was tip the scale in favor of rich collectors and push aside those who wish to preserve culture and history
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Old 8th August 2007, 07:13 AM   #20
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Irrational exuberance?

Well this is just not good. Unfair to both buyers and sellers. Very unfair to the second high bidder if he/she was serious. Hopefully the person didn’t read the comments here and decided to cop out on the sword. That is just not honourable, and too bad for those who were serious about the item.

Honestly whether the person would have overpaid or not, it doesn’t bother me as long as they were going to pay. A person can do whatever they want with their own money. And even if a person pays $1000 for a pet rock, it’s not going to drive up the prices of other pet rocks unless such value becomes the norm due to interest and a lack of supply for the demand.

Moreover, interest can also wane at times. Prices can go up, prices can go down just like in the general markets. Sometimes an auction house can sell a Van Gogh for X number of millions and then during a different economy, sometimes it’s just not worth trying to sell it. The only real issue here in my opinion is whether ebay is an honest avenue for those actually serious about collecting. I don’t like the anonymous bidders rule either. I’m not out to memorize names (I just go for what I like), but ebay’s new system works against my instincts at sensing whether or not I’m being taken for a ride.

If it’s not the seller himself (and in this case that doesn’t appear to be the case), then other possibilities could be a shop or another seller trying to run up auction prices to make their offerings seem well worth it. That doesn’t seem to be the case here either however because of the distinct aspects of this particular sword regardless of the condition or quality. The buyers here I think were going for the “perceived” Datu aspect of a sword and unable to assess that aspect beyond the 'brand' of the sword.

Anyway, ebay really needs to clean up the sham it’s started with the anonymous bidding.
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Old 8th August 2007, 07:09 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elevennevele
Irrational exuberance?

A person can do whatever they want with their own money. And even if a person pays $1000 for a pet rock, it’s not going to drive up the prices of other pet rocks unless such value becomes the norm due to interest and a lack of supply for the demand.



I've collected WWII German militaria... I've watched SS helmets go from $75 bucks to $3000 in a 40 year span.

I’ve collected Japanese swords…and watched as the Japanese were heavily buying them back in the 1990’s… watching prices go through the roof (but many were going back home, where they were truly respected and appreciated).

I collect Soviet period militaria... and in 10 years, primo Soviet Orders have jumped 10 to 20 times in value. I am glad that I got what I got, when I did. Back when passionate collectors were boldly venturing out to gather these prized pieces of history after the “fall” of the Union… before it became an “investor’s” world.

20 years ago, dealers were having a tough time selling true Datu quality Moro pieces for 45 to100 bucks… to see them today passing the $1000 mark and pushing towards $2000. That’s crazy. To see a “so-so” piece being pushed beyond that is pure insanity (someone was number 2 on this bid to drive it that high).

The point that I am trying to make… is that when people jump into “collecting” with little knowledge or care for the subject, are willing to throw big bucks at it for the simple reason of turning a profit… that kills it for collectors who have a passion and do it solely for the love of history and culture.

Simply... there is nothing left to study. It becomes locked up in some investor's closet.

I guess its starting to be time to collect something like “locks and pulls” (that would be door knobs)… or is it already too late to get into that? If not, is someone going to start a forum on it?
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Old 8th August 2007, 07:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSMStar
You mean Hosered.

This is just crazy... to have a not overly spectacular layered blade with flaws, rehilted (at least sometime in its history) with ivory… stand back and watch the eBay insanity play out. Not worth the closing price, even as an investment... and to be clear, I am not blaming the seller on this. I'm talking about the shark like insatiable feeding frenzy, even when a minnow is placed in the water.

This is just hurting all of us who are trying to collect for the culture, heritage and history.

Thank you BSMStar - on the nose. Sickenly insane. Rising prices is one thing, but insanity only hurts when the frenzy ends and the prices plummet to "corrected" market value, making the inflated values hurt everyone.
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Old 8th August 2007, 07:32 PM   #23
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BSMstar, you are too late door knobs are really expensive. I was Lucky and got this Victorian set cheaply, I sprayed them gold. Go to London and you would pay the earth. As to collecting weapons, there is so much out there- use your loaf, move on and buy something else, the prices will come down. The prices are high because you pay it.
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Old 8th August 2007, 10:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSMStar
This is just crazy... to have a not overly spectacular layered blade with flaws, rehilted (at least sometime in its history) with ivory… stand back and watch the eBay insanity play out. Not worth the closing price, even as an investment... and to be clear, I am not blaming the seller on this. I'm talking about the shark like insatiable feeding frenzy, even when a minnow is placed in the water.

This is just hurting all of us who are trying to collect for the culture, heritage and history.


I agree completely. Normally, I'm a big advocate for the free market, and more than willing to allow that market to set prices where appropriate. However, there can come a point where manipulation (intentional or otherwise) affects the intrinsic, non-monetary value of an item/group of items. Once that happens, collecting for the joy of learning and, yes, preservation of culture and heritage, take a back seat to lucre. I think that is a real shame.

Unfortunately, I was probably a force in driving the prices up on dha in recent years. I recall a point, perhaps 2 years ago, when I was considering a bid that was significantly higher than I would ever pay because I was caught up in my desire to acquire. I checked myself, bailed out of that auction, and have since changed my buying/bidding habits.

Don't get me wrong, I'll still bid aggressively on stuff I really want. I suspect when certain bidders see me place a rare bid these days, they either drop out or prepare to do battle.
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Old 9th August 2007, 12:02 AM   #25
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For those of us in the USA, we have a falling $, which makes collecting more expensive in a world market. Not to say, that is the reason but it does play a part.
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Old 9th August 2007, 12:06 AM   #26
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Corkscrews. Collect corkscrews. Saw a corkscrew collection lately. He even had a corkscrew collectors book.
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Old 9th August 2007, 01:44 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
BSMstar, you are too late door knobs are really expensive. I was Lucky and got this Victorian set cheaply, I sprayed them gold. Go to London and you would pay the earth. As to collecting weapons, there is so much out there- use your loaf, move on and buy something else, the prices will come down. The prices are high because you pay it.



Hi Tim!

Awesome door knob! You just don't see those around any more.

I normally agree with you... that the prices are high because people are willing to pay it.

But in this case, and to bring the point home, I purchased an Ivory Moro Kris with a twisted core last year for just under $500 (similar to the one in this auction without the flaws). This year this one is passing $2600?? That is over a 500% change in one year.

Look at the bidding... the "sane" bidding died out in the $600 range (the price the majority of people were willing to pay).
The desperate bidding died out in the $1200 range (that was crazy).
Three drove it to the loony price range of $2200...
And the two bidders drove the price pass the insane $2600 range.

One can not reason (based on the top two bids) this is what the "average collector" truly believes this Kris is worth... that $2600 is the price "people" are "willing" to pay. Then to back out of the deal (if I were the seller, I would want to reach through my computer, grab Hoser by the neck and shake some bloody sense in to him)! It is pure insanity and no good can come of it!
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Old 9th August 2007, 01:52 AM   #28
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Thumbs down

I guess I must repeat; this auction was 'cybertaged' for the sole purpose of creating price confusion in this particular collecting niche .

The ultimate hope (as mentioned before) was to somehow re-adjust prices lower for Moro pieces.

I just don't participate on eBay any more; IMO it has been the bane of the serious collector for some time now.
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Old 9th August 2007, 05:01 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSMStar
20 years ago, dealers were having a tough time selling true Datu quality Moro pieces for 45 to100 bucks… to see them today passing the $1000 mark and pushing towards $2000. That’s crazy. To see a “so-so” piece being pushed beyond that is pure insanity (someone was number 2 on this bid to drive it that high).

The point that I am trying to make… is that when people jump into “collecting” with little knowledge or care for the subject, are willing to throw big bucks at it for the simple reason of turning a profit… that kills it for collectors who have a passion and do it solely for the love of history and culture.

Simply... there is nothing left to study. It becomes locked up in some investor's closet.



I don't see how you can honestly tell me that a person paying higher prices for something now doesn't share the same appreciation of an item as the person who was able to acquire items when they weren't as valued. Cheap items and expensive items both have unscrupulous sellers out to make a dollar and exploit the culture they are dealing in. Do you think all those selling their Soviet trinkets gave an impassioned thought about their own culture as they watched the items leave the borders of their homeland? Was that the noble process for the true collector who saw value in those trinkets??

By your own testimony you have obviously collected things that were sitting somewhere probably neglected in someone's home and which didn't share that appreciation by the owner. And really, that is probably how you acquired these items on the cheap in the first place.

In fact you contradicted yourself when you spoke of the Japanese re-purchasing their own history at much higher prices and undoubtedly pushed up values in the process of trying to acquire. That doesn't speak of a lack of appreciation, or foolish ignorance on the part of those collectors.

Sure, I' m definitely seeing some irrational exuberance on eBay, and the hidden bidding is opening the door to being ripped off, and to me that is the real concern. The 'real issue' especially if the bidder has no intention of paying. However, to tell me that a person who is paying more than the expected going prices is simply a hoarder or doesn't share the level of appreciation as a collector as yourself is very presumptuous in my opinion. In fact it makes much more sense that a person who is simply out for the buck would want to acquire items as cheaply as possible.

Really, the person paying a hefty sum for something that has little purpose in today's age other than to admire or preserve is probably more researched for having spent that money and also would have probably then given thought to it's care for the investment alone. That at least insures more likely a greater care to the artifacts preservation. Maybe that person isn't as astute a collector as yourself, or as great a scholar of the artifact that he or she owns, but that has nothing to do with appreciation. Neither does collections in the hands of an even more knowledgeable collector equal the ability to give greater care of the item, or hold a greater means for sharing it with others.

And really, how many of you have bought things, only to become more knowledgeable or even more appreciative of the item after having owned it for a time? Sometimes the cart comes before the horse in collecting. Nothing wrong with that if the item was still purchased intentionally with a sense of appreciation.

And if a Datu sword still went for $50, who's to say a teenager with a nice allowance from parents wouldn't buy it simply because it's 'cool' only to let it sit in his closet gathering dust with that autographed baseball glove? For me being one who values preservation along with collecting, I'm a little more reassured for the culture in question if the hands exchanging the artifact at least see as much value towards the item as in the cost they are billing themselves for it.

In all honestly, I'm all for your thinking and I wish it were as you've said, but I think that is more 'idealism' towards the concept of collecting than anything else.
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Old 9th August 2007, 06:49 PM   #30
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Double post...
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