Looking for Forum

Jim McDougall · 6th August 2007, 01:12 AM

I'm glad Fernando posted this, and I think it is indeed a valid subject whether ethnographic weapon or not as it is in degree associated. Just as with edged weapons, the weapons of colonial powers often diffused into native armouries and if nothing else, even the firearms are interesting from historical perspective.
I fail to see what possible connection there is between negative associations with the guns of today and historical weapons of yesteryear. I do not particularly 'like' guns either as a result of unfortunate personal experience, however I do very much enjoy the 'history of weapons' overall.

Getting to the question, probably one good source would be the 'antique and military swords forum over on SFI. The guys over there seem to be equally involved in one degree or another with a wide scope of weaponry, and I am sure many would have certain knowledge on guns of this period. One of the best sources, if you ever can find them, are auction catalogs, as far as simple identification. As far as books, "British Military Firearms" by Howard Blackmore (I do not recall date) has excellent information, however it would seem your pistol is private issue.

The 'Queen Anne' period is a highly romanticized period, mostly for its associations with the 'golden age' of piracy, and your pistol certainly seems to handsomely represent the time, an extremely nice example.
I hope this will be of some help

All the best ,
Jim

Bill M · 6th August 2007, 02:49 AM

I have no problems with the postings of firearms. They are as ethnographic as edged weapons. Fernando put it very eloquently.

Just to put this pistol in perspective, could you give us an overall length?

Rick · 6th August 2007, 03:29 AM

A pistol is nothing more than a sophisticated tool for throwing a stone .

rand · 6th August 2007, 04:01 AM

The title arms and armor forum sort of says it all. The same type of metalwork done on a sword was done on a firearm as was done on armor. Its all intertwined and all parts of the of arms and armor are needed to fully explain a reason or progression of use. Its a cause and effect ralationship...

Glad you are here Fernando... And I look forward to reading the posts on your fine pistol.

Am curious, what questions do you have about your pistol?

rand

Chris Evans · 6th August 2007, 04:13 AM

Feranando,

What a wonderful pistol - I bet it wasn't cheap.

My attitude to weapons in general is that they are implements of survival. Without them we would have no way to hunt of defend ourselves. Firearms and edged weapons are all all armaments. That said, I think that Ariel's suggestion of a subforum for antique firearms is a good one.

Cheers
Chris

josh stout · 6th August 2007, 02:52 PM

If you had said "Queen Anne" and "antique" to me I would have thought of furniture. It is neat to see the same style in a pistol. For me, that is the useful part of looking at related items from a particular time and place. It allows one to see continuity of themes from a particular culture, which then allows better identification of other artifacts.
Josh

fernando · 6th August 2007, 10:21 PM

It just came to my mind that one specimen i would like to have in my collection would be the donkey jaw bone with which Samson killed one thousand Philistines. Certainly an unusual resource weapon as also an ethnographic one

.
According to what i have learnt in the last couple days, the Queen Anne pistol pattern has indeed comenced before Queen Anne reign, but was nick named after this Monarch due to having achieved its popularity during such period. It looks lyke style and decoration ( baroque and rococo

) were adapted by British gunsmiths from XVII century French basis.The actual name of this pattern was "turn off pistol". Apart from the screw barrel ( breech loading "forced" bulllit ), other characteristics would be the shape of the stock, usually with a dragon ( lion?) mask in the butt, and the absence of a stock fore end. Further references would be the cannon shape of the barrel and the inverted peculiar frizen spring. This specimen of mine appears not to have a turn off barrel, but a ramrod instead, which is not so often seen but still a variant of these pistols. Eventually a famous gunsmith ( James freeman 1710 ) has once come up with one of these, which was referred to as a night pistol. The intention was to load it with buck shot, to avoid a precise aim with solid shot in the dark of the night. This would eliminate the need for a screw barrel, using a ramrod instead. I don't think this would necessarily apply to all ramrod version "Queen Annes".
The total length of this example is close from 9" and the barrel measures 4 1/2". The caliber rounds the .50".
My great question, the one i am eager to have solved at short term, is its genuinity, on what touches origin. I have paid a considerable amount of money for it

. Then somebody told me this is a knock off, based on the fact that the gunmaker's name is omitted and there are no proof marks visible. A good quality piece, but still a knoff off, basicaly of Belgium provenance. This being true, the value of such imitation woud be some 60% of the original British stuff, which would be a disaster, considering what i have paid for it. However the opinnion i had about the knock off possibility is not founded on a fully solid basis. For example, i have read that the fact of only having as a mark the sole word LONDON, could either be a foreign imitation trick or also the several indiscriminated British regional gunmakers resource to increase the image of their products. So i give it so far the benefit of the doubt.
Any coments towards this dilemma, good or bad, will be most wellcome.

6th August 2007, 04:01 AM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Arms and armor forum The title arms and armor forum sort of says it all. The same type of metalwork done on a sword was done on a firearm as was done on armor. Its all intertwined and all parts of the of arms and armor are needed to fully explain a reason or progression of use. Its a cause and effect ralationship... Glad you are here Fernando... And I look forward to reading the posts on your fine pistol. Am curious, what questions do you have about your pistol? rand

6th August 2007, 01:12 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	I'm glad Fernando posted this, and I think it is indeed a valid subject whether ethnographic weapon or not as it is in degree associated. Just as with edged weapons, the weapons of colonial powers often diffused into native armouries and if nothing else, even the firearms are interesting from historical perspective. I fail to see what possible connection there is between negative associations with the guns of today and historical weapons of yesteryear. I do not particularly 'like' guns either as a result of unfortunate personal experience, however I do very much enjoy the 'history of weapons' overall. Getting to the question, probably one good source would be the 'antique and military swords forum over on SFI. The guys over there seem to be equally involved in one degree or another with a wide scope of weaponry, and I am sure many would have certain knowledge on guns of this period. One of the best sources, if you ever can find them, are auction catalogs, as far as simple identification. As far as books, "British Military Firearms" by Howard Blackmore (I do not recall date) has excellent information, however it would seem your pistol is private issue. The 'Queen Anne' period is a highly romanticized period, mostly for its associations with the 'golden age' of piracy, and your pistol certainly seems to handsomely represent the time, an extremely nice example. I hope this will be of some help All the best , Jim

6th August 2007, 02:49 AM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I have no problems with the postings of firearms. They are as ethnographic as edged weapons. Fernando put it very eloquently. Just to put this pistol in perspective, could you give us an overall length?

6th August 2007, 03:29 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	A pistol is nothing more than a sophisticated tool for throwing a stone .

6th August 2007, 04:13 AM	#5
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Feranando, What a wonderful pistol - I bet it wasn't cheap. My attitude to weapons in general is that they are implements of survival. Without them we would have no way to hunt of defend ourselves. Firearms and edged weapons are all all armaments. That said, I think that Ariel's suggestion of a subforum for antique firearms is a good one. Cheers Chris

6th August 2007, 02:52 PM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	If you had said "Queen Anne" and "antique" to me I would have thought of furniture. It is neat to see the same style in a pistol. For me, that is the useful part of looking at related items from a particular time and place. It allows one to see continuity of themes from a particular culture, which then allows better identification of other artifacts. Josh

6th August 2007, 10:21 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It just came to my mind that one specimen i would like to have in my collection would be the donkey jaw bone with which Samson killed one thousand Philistines. Certainly an unusual resource weapon as also an ethnographic one . According to what i have learnt in the last couple days, the Queen Anne pistol pattern has indeed comenced before Queen Anne reign, but was nick named after this Monarch due to having achieved its popularity during such period. It looks lyke style and decoration ( baroque and rococo ) were adapted by British gunsmiths from XVII century French basis.The actual name of this pattern was "turn off pistol". Apart from the screw barrel ( breech loading "forced" bulllit ), other characteristics would be the shape of the stock, usually with a dragon ( lion?) mask in the butt, and the absence of a stock fore end. Further references would be the cannon shape of the barrel and the inverted peculiar frizen spring. This specimen of mine appears not to have a turn off barrel, but a ramrod instead, which is not so often seen but still a variant of these pistols. Eventually a famous gunsmith ( James freeman 1710 ) has once come up with one of these, which was referred to as a night pistol. The intention was to load it with buck shot, to avoid a precise aim with solid shot in the dark of the night. This would eliminate the need for a screw barrel, using a ramrod instead. I don't think this would necessarily apply to all ramrod version "Queen Annes". The total length of this example is close from 9" and the barrel measures 4 1/2". The caliber rounds the .50". My great question, the one i am eager to have solved at short term, is its genuinity, on what touches origin. I have paid a considerable amount of money for it . Then somebody told me this is a knock off, based on the fact that the gunmaker's name is omitted and there are no proof marks visible. A good quality piece, but still a knoff off, basicaly of Belgium provenance. This being true, the value of such imitation woud be some 60% of the original British stuff, which would be a disaster, considering what i have paid for it. However the opinnion i had about the knock off possibility is not founded on a fully solid basis. For example, i have read that the fact of only having as a mark the sole word LONDON, could either be a foreign imitation trick or also the several indiscriminated British regional gunmakers resource to increase the image of their products. So i give it so far the benefit of the doubt. Any coments towards this dilemma, good or bad, will be most wellcome.