Ivory hilt dagger with "Tears" and a "Smiley?"

rand · 5th August 2007, 09:55 PM

hey Jens,

I see Indian work written all over this dagger. Look at the wootz, its dense and grey, a flambouyant armor piercing blade, the chisel work on the bird with triangular edges.

You will find this type dagger categorized many times as Indian and not so often as Persian. Although I do believe there are Persian exaamples too. The Persian asthetics are more refined and less opulant.

This in no way is to take away from this dagger, its a very desirable item.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this dagger have Indian elephant ivory for the grip scales? If it does that would be another indication of Mughal taste.

Oh Jen, have found more examples of that chevron design similar to your tulwar on armor, most of it 16th -17th century. There is also some sumptuous Russian armor with the chevron designs. Persia lost Armenia and the Caucasus to Russia in the 19th century so you can see how it becomes harder and harder to say something is from somewhere.

Brian...are you reading this? Whats your opinion?

The simple designs tend to be early and the Persian work a less is more attitude, where as Mughal work can tend to be more is better. Can be a reflection of the need and desire for individualism.

Hope you find a treasure during you travels Jen,

rand

Mare Rosu · 5th August 2007, 11:18 PM

Rand, Jens:
More great information coming from you folks

Rand you think it may be Elephant Ivory on the dagger? Can you or Jens or anyone else,tell me what to look for in trying to determine just what kind of Ivory it is. Could it be bone even? I may be able to take a close up of the "wings" if that would help.
Gene

Jens Nordlunde · 6th August 2007, 01:06 PM

Gene, yes I believe the grip scales to be elephant ivory, and not walrus ivory like they mostly used for these knives. One thing which you must remember, if you buy anything of ivory abroad, and that is to ask the seller to get a CITES certificate. If you don’t have such a certificate you can be in deep trouble and risk to get the item confiscated.

Rand, the scales sure look like ivory to me – does not make the dagger ant worse.
Maybe we should discuss the zigzag/chevron thing in PM’s or maybe on another thread, not to muddy the waters too much

.

rand · 7th August 2007, 06:52 AM

Indian elephant ivory stays white, fine grained

African elephant ivory turns yellow then brown, fine grained

Walrus ivory (shirmani) turns yellow then brown, mottled or granular

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 7th August 2007, 01:41 PM

Here in an example, and yes, they did import ivory from Africa.

josh stout · 8th August 2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Here in an example, and yes, they did import ivory from Africa.

Is it Walrus on the left and African elephant on the right?
Josh

Jens Nordlunde · 8th August 2007, 05:11 PM

Thank you for your answer, but I have never seen walrus ivory look like this before, so I will try to get it checked by a specialist.

5th August 2007, 09:55 PM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Dagger hey Jens, I see Indian work written all over this dagger. Look at the wootz, its dense and grey, a flambouyant armor piercing blade, the chisel work on the bird with triangular edges. You will find this type dagger categorized many times as Indian and not so often as Persian. Although I do believe there are Persian exaamples too. The Persian asthetics are more refined and less opulant. This in no way is to take away from this dagger, its a very desirable item. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this dagger have Indian elephant ivory for the grip scales? If it does that would be another indication of Mughal taste. Oh Jen, have found more examples of that chevron design similar to your tulwar on armor, most of it 16th -17th century. There is also some sumptuous Russian armor with the chevron designs. Persia lost Armenia and the Caucasus to Russia in the 19th century so you can see how it becomes harder and harder to say something is from somewhere. Brian...are you reading this? Whats your opinion? The simple designs tend to be early and the Persian work a less is more attitude, where as Mughal work can tend to be more is better. Can be a reflection of the need and desire for individualism. Hope you find a treasure during you travels Jen, rand

5th August 2007, 11:18 PM	#2
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	IVORY? WHAT TYPE? Rand, Jens: More great information coming from you folks Rand you think it may be Elephant Ivory on the dagger? Can you or Jens or anyone else,tell me what to look for in trying to determine just what kind of Ivory it is. Could it be bone even? I may be able to take a close up of the "wings" if that would help. Gene

6th August 2007, 01:06 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gene, yes I believe the grip scales to be elephant ivory, and not walrus ivory like they mostly used for these knives. One thing which you must remember, if you buy anything of ivory abroad, and that is to ask the seller to get a CITES certificate. If you don’t have such a certificate you can be in deep trouble and risk to get the item confiscated. Rand, the scales sure look like ivory to me – does not make the dagger ant worse. Maybe we should discuss the zigzag/chevron thing in PM’s or maybe on another thread, not to muddy the waters too much.

7th August 2007, 06:52 AM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Ivory Indian elephant ivory stays white, fine grained African elephant ivory turns yellow then brown, fine grained Walrus ivory (shirmani) turns yellow then brown, mottled or granular rand

7th August 2007, 01:41 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here in an example, and yes, they did import ivory from Africa. Attached Images

8th August 2007, 05:11 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for your answer, but I have never seen walrus ivory look like this before, so I will try to get it checked by a specialist.