Origins of Shepherds' Knives and Karakulaks

TVV · 2nd August 2007, 04:11 PM

I could not agree more with you. I brought up the machaira hypothesis not because I like it - there is lack of evidence, but because I have always had problems with the Alexander the Great theory - there is not much to support it either.

Yannis · 2nd August 2007, 05:59 PM

The "separatist"

theory goes very far.

The Vergina Star discovered in 1977 so there is no way to be used like identity symbol of anyone before that.

erlikhan · 2nd August 2007, 09:29 PM

I wonder what is funny about the word 'separatist'? Were they not getting armed and fighting Ottomans to separate from them? Or the problem is "Macedonians are not a seperate ethnical people, so they don't have the right to be separatist"?

If a symbol has existed widely on armors, buildings, etc. and especially thousands of coins from a definite area as Teodor's picture shows, it doesn't have to wait to be found on a royal stuff underground, for the permission to be claimed by any people/ organization. It is very interesting that how Macedonia and its neighbors all have too different points of views on the subject,each opposite of all others,as far as I know. With a short web search you can find sites with amazingly different points of views like http://www.makedonija.info/info.html

ariel · 2nd August 2007, 10:28 PM

Folks, you are skating on a very thin ice! Some of our moderators are presumably still in the slammer and the coast might be temporarily clear, but I would much rather learn about the origins of yataghans than about national grievances

TVV · 3rd August 2007, 01:36 AM

You are right Ariel, but I hope this thread does not get locked, because if every thread about Balkan weapons gets locked any time we have a polite historical discussion, we will never learn anything about Balkan weapons, and I am sure you will agree there is relatively little known about them compared to weapons from other areas of the world. I and Yannis were far from trying to instigate an argument on Macedonian history - we just wanted to point out that the idea that FYROM is a descendant and successor of ancient Macedonia is a fairly recent one, and therefore it is a little bit of a stretch to try to find a direct relationship between ancient Macedonian symbols and the weapons of freedom fighters of various ethnicities more than a 100 years ago. As far as the Ilinden Uprising is concerned, it was organized by VMORO, the initials of which stand for Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска Революционна Организация, or Inner Macedono-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization, and its members had the goal of liberating not only Macedonia, but also Eastern Thrace, and not because they wanted to resurrect ancient Macedonia or Thrace (say, the Odrysian Kingdom), but because these were the terriotries initially liberated after the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 and later returned to the Ottoman Empire after the Berlin Congress. I am attaching the flag of the rebels from Ohrid, which contains no ancient solar symbols whatsoever, to hopefully put an end to the idea that the Ilinden rebels had the 8-beamed Sun as one of their symbols. All this I am doing not to prove a nationalistic point, but just to show how the stamp on the akkulak in the beginning of the thread is extremely unlikely to be connected to the Macedonian freedom movement.
If there is indeed a link between the ancient Thracian and Macedonian symbol as seen on coins, and the 19th century karakulaks' stamps, I think it is what Jim suggested - an atavistic symbol, which survived as a part of the Thracian and Macedonian culture, gradually losing its meaning and becoming a traditional decorative element. I will be reapeating myself, but let me explain once again - the reason I brought up the topic was an attempt to explore alternative theories for the origin of yataghans and karakulaks, hopefully finding the missing link between the kopis and the first yataghans, or at least an explanation why such link has not been found so far. And I really, really hope this thread remains open, so that we can continue the discussion about the obscure origin of these weapons, which are my favorites.

ariel · 3rd August 2007, 02:28 AM

I second the motion!
We had a discussion once when the idea of the Eastward migration of the Makhaira with Alexander was followed 2 milennia later by it's Westward return as a Yataghan. In between, it allegedly created Nepalese Kukri and a host of other recurved weapons.
Well, if one looks at Gorelik's works, there were recurved knives ( short) all over: from Greece to Caucasus, the steppes and all the way to China. Longer blades, used as weapons, of that configuration were indeed seen in Greek and Scythian cultures but not in Anatolia, Syro-Palestinian enclaves or Mesopotamia. However, one can easily imagine that Turkic tribes just lenghtened the indigenous recurved knife into a longer blade: the Yataghan. Indeed, Yataghan was never a real "sword" : it was Yataghan Bicagi, ie Yataghan knife or dagger. So far so good.
However, Gorelik did not touch on Indian weapons, and recurved, Yataghan-ish, swords were quite widespread there. One does not need to invoke Macedonian transplants in the genesis of Kukris and Sossun Patas : they might ( likely, must) have been brought up North by the Southern Indian expansion. Although, Greek influence did affect Central Asian art: witness Persian and Afghani statues.
And, of course, where are the Yataghans dating back before Ahmet Tekelu's masterpiece? How on Earth did he come with the idea? Ah, he was the Teke, from what is now Turkmenistan? Back to the Central Asian hypothesis...

A horrendously confusing subject

Yannis · 3rd August 2007, 07:49 AM

The travel of yataghan to the east and back to Balkans is the most prominent hypothesis.

Hundreds of years after Alexander there was an Indo-Greek Kingdom in northwest and northern Indian subcontinent with Greek rulers and official language. I suppose that is an explanation about Kukris and Sossun Patas also.

I agree that we dont talk politics on this forum but this rule must be respected from all. So please do not provoke

I didnt wrote about nations, that more or less they are a "salade macedoine" in all area. I just criticized a theory that claims the impossible as TVV noticed, too, from his part of view.

2nd August 2007, 09:29 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I wonder what is funny about the word 'separatist'? Were they not getting armed and fighting Ottomans to separate from them? Or the problem is "Macedonians are not a seperate ethnical people, so they don't have the right to be separatist"? If a symbol has existed widely on armors, buildings, etc. and especially thousands of coins from a definite area as Teodor's picture shows, it doesn't have to wait to be found on a royal stuff underground, for the permission to be claimed by any people/ organization. It is very interesting that how Macedonia and its neighbors all have too different points of views on the subject,each opposite of all others,as far as I know. With a short web search you can find sites with amazingly different points of views like http://www.makedonija.info/info.html Last edited by erlikhan; 2nd August 2007 at 10:42 PM.

3rd August 2007, 01:36 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	You are right Ariel, but I hope this thread does not get locked, because if every thread about Balkan weapons gets locked any time we have a polite historical discussion, we will never learn anything about Balkan weapons, and I am sure you will agree there is relatively little known about them compared to weapons from other areas of the world. I and Yannis were far from trying to instigate an argument on Macedonian history - we just wanted to point out that the idea that FYROM is a descendant and successor of ancient Macedonia is a fairly recent one, and therefore it is a little bit of a stretch to try to find a direct relationship between ancient Macedonian symbols and the weapons of freedom fighters of various ethnicities more than a 100 years ago. As far as the Ilinden Uprising is concerned, it was organized by VMORO, the initials of which stand for Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска Революционна Организация, or Inner Macedono-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization, and its members had the goal of liberating not only Macedonia, but also Eastern Thrace, and not because they wanted to resurrect ancient Macedonia or Thrace (say, the Odrysian Kingdom), but because these were the terriotries initially liberated after the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 and later returned to the Ottoman Empire after the Berlin Congress. I am attaching the flag of the rebels from Ohrid, which contains no ancient solar symbols whatsoever, to hopefully put an end to the idea that the Ilinden rebels had the 8-beamed Sun as one of their symbols. All this I am doing not to prove a nationalistic point, but just to show how the stamp on the akkulak in the beginning of the thread is extremely unlikely to be connected to the Macedonian freedom movement. If there is indeed a link between the ancient Thracian and Macedonian symbol as seen on coins, and the 19th century karakulaks' stamps, I think it is what Jim suggested - an atavistic symbol, which survived as a part of the Thracian and Macedonian culture, gradually losing its meaning and becoming a traditional decorative element. I will be reapeating myself, but let me explain once again - the reason I brought up the topic was an attempt to explore alternative theories for the origin of yataghans and karakulaks, hopefully finding the missing link between the kopis and the first yataghans, or at least an explanation why such link has not been found so far. And I really, really hope this thread remains open, so that we can continue the discussion about the obscure origin of these weapons, which are my favorites. Attached Images

2nd August 2007, 04:11 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	I could not agree more with you. I brought up the machaira hypothesis not because I like it - there is lack of evidence, but because I have always had problems with the Alexander the Great theory - there is not much to support it either.

2nd August 2007, 05:59 PM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	The "separatist" theory goes very far. The Vergina Star discovered in 1977 so there is no way to be used like identity symbol of anyone before that.

2nd August 2007, 10:28 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Folks, you are skating on a very thin ice! Some of our moderators are presumably still in the slammer and the coast might be temporarily clear, but I would much rather learn about the origins of yataghans than about national grievances

3rd August 2007, 02:28 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I second the motion! We had a discussion once when the idea of the Eastward migration of the Makhaira with Alexander was followed 2 milennia later by it's Westward return as a Yataghan. In between, it allegedly created Nepalese Kukri and a host of other recurved weapons. Well, if one looks at Gorelik's works, there were recurved knives ( short) all over: from Greece to Caucasus, the steppes and all the way to China. Longer blades, used as weapons, of that configuration were indeed seen in Greek and Scythian cultures but not in Anatolia, Syro-Palestinian enclaves or Mesopotamia. However, one can easily imagine that Turkic tribes just lenghtened the indigenous recurved knife into a longer blade: the Yataghan. Indeed, Yataghan was never a real "sword" : it was Yataghan Bicagi, ie Yataghan knife or dagger. So far so good. However, Gorelik did not touch on Indian weapons, and recurved, Yataghan-ish, swords were quite widespread there. One does not need to invoke Macedonian transplants in the genesis of Kukris and Sossun Patas : they might ( likely, must) have been brought up North by the Southern Indian expansion. Although, Greek influence did affect Central Asian art: witness Persian and Afghani statues. And, of course, where are the Yataghans dating back before Ahmet Tekelu's masterpiece? How on Earth did he come with the idea? Ah, he was the Teke, from what is now Turkmenistan? Back to the Central Asian hypothesis... A horrendously confusing subject

3rd August 2007, 07:49 AM	#7
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	The travel of yataghan to the east and back to Balkans is the most prominent hypothesis. Hundreds of years after Alexander there was an Indo-Greek Kingdom in northwest and northern Indian subcontinent with Greek rulers and official language. I suppose that is an explanation about Kukris and Sossun Patas also. I agree that we dont talk politics on this forum but this rule must be respected from all. So please do not provoke I didnt wrote about nations, that more or less they are a "salade macedoine" in all area. I just criticized a theory that claims the impossible as TVV noticed, too, from his part of view.