Origins of Shepherds' Knives and Karakulaks

[TVV]

Originally Posted by ariel

the question: are there any Balkan swords with recurved blades dating back to the 1st milennium?

The answer to this question is no, as far as I know, as far as weapons are concerned. Once the Romans conquered the Balkans, they did not adopt any of the great variety of Thracian blade shapes. Then the Slavs and Bulgars came, each with their weapons suited to their style of warfare.
However, I do not consider karakulaks to be a pure weapon, as many of them are more of a utility tool than a fighting knife/short sword. The earliest dated karakulaks are from the 1830s, and there is nothing prior to them, which makes sense, as they do not exactly seem like an item that would be passed from generation to generation. There might be earlier examples, as the yataghan had been known in the Balkans since the 16th century, but being simple, undecorated weapons, no examples of karakulaks prior to the 19th century have survived, as perhaps noone deemed them worthy of preservation.
Of course, there is nothing to prove a direct link between Thracian machairas and 19th century karakulaks, but when one considers the striking simialrity in the solar symbol, often found on karakulaks' blades, especially the same number of rays, it is still an interesting coincidence.

[TVV]

Here is a random thought: is there anything to suggest that the Ottomans, or any Turks for that matter, had yataghan-shaped blades before their conquest of the Balkans?

[erlikhan]

Teodor,isn't today's Macedonia flag a sun with rays around it? I found one on internet and counted the rays. They are eight. If a shepherd knife of 100 years old from Macedonia has a similar mark, instead of looking for a continuous track going back to 2000 years ago, I would consider Macedonian seperatist uprisings in that part of Balkans as a reason, supporters of which perhaps used their ancient symbols to claim a historical base for their movements and identities ,so that ancient symbol regained a such popularity among local people. I mean, just perhaps you can find the same symbol on a pistol or a rifle or anything from that period too.The earliest yataghan sample is from 1520s, 170-180 years later after the start of Balkan conquests which is a quiet long time gap making it too difficult to suggest any relation between Balkan conquest-yataghan fashion and more difficulty added as there is no satisfactory sample or record at all, to combine too long time gap between ancient Macedonian swords and 16th c. Ottoman yataghans , not only in Turkic lands, but in Balkans or anywhere around as well.

[TVV]

Erlikhan, you are right, there was a flag in the Ilinden uprisal, which had 16 beams instead of 8. The official flag of the Krushevo Republic was black and red, however, and there is very little to indicate that the ancient Macedonian symbols were held in high esteem. I very highly doubt that the akkulak pictured is connected to the 1903 rebellion, despite how romantic such a reltionship could be, and this is a fairly common mark on karakulaks found in nowadays Bulgaria. It is extremely unlikely that they are all Macedonian, and one needs to keep in mind that Macedonian nationalism is a recent and quite amusing phenomenon - some historiographers in Skopie would go great lengths in their quest for legitimizing a nation that did not exist 50 years ago.
I agree that the gap between the acient Greek and Thracian swords with an S-shaped blade and the Ottoman yataghans from the 16th century is huge, and it puzzles me a lot, how the yataghan appeared out of the blue, with no ancestors at all. If the official theory, which maintains that this shape was introduced to Central Asia by Alexander the Great's armies is true, why are not there any Central Asian finds of such blades, other than (maybe) the Nepalese khukris? Or maybe they are, but I just do not know about them, and this is what I like to find out, for there is evolution in blade shapes and nothing apperas out of itself, with nothing to precede it.

[erlikhan]

Teodor, I do not favor that theory Alexander the great - introduction of yataghans to central Asia. The same big gap there like in Balkans,no doubt. No sample or record.Yataghan is practically an infantry arm which I dont think primarily mounted warriors of central Asia would like so much and continue the tradition for 1700 years or so. They preferred arrows,bows,javelins and long sabers . I wonder if there is any certain,satisfactory yataghan record before Suleyman the magnificent's beautiful yataghan. I have always considered it very interesting that the most beautiful and extraordinary yataghan sample known is also by far the earliest yataghan that is known to exist !

[TVV]

I could not agree more with you. I brought up the machaira hypothesis not because I like it - there is lack of evidence, but because I have always had problems with the Alexander the Great theory - there is not much to support it either.

[Yannis]

The "separatist" theory goes very far.
The Vergina Star discovered in 1977 so there is no way to be used like identity symbol of anyone before that.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by TVV

Here is a random thought: is there anything to suggest that the Ottomans, or any Turks for that matter, had yataghan-shaped blades before their conquest of the Balkans?

they are not turkic weapons. thesplit handles.. the pinned cutlery grips and curved blades are itemsof the caucasus, mediterranianand near east.
just because romansfor example didnt use such swords and knives dosnt mean local people stopped using them.. just as the british didnt use tulwars or hungamungas.... didnt stop locals making them.

these pinned handles witha presumable phallic cleft and without a dlubt native to the southcaucasus, anatolia and the surrounding area and go back very far in time.. as to the habit of pinning the grips. the handle style that the yatagan uses is spread all the way from the takhlamakan desert to morocco.. probably by some sort of informal movement of trade and peopl, not by war. lookat uyghur, persian afhan.. turkish... bosnian. greek ect belt knives. but if i was a guessing man id saythe recurve of the yatagan comes from knives originating in greek speaking areasthe big bulgarian peasents knives probably predate the ottoma yatagan bya long time..