Dangers of Producing replica ethnographic weapons and art

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2007, 05:58 PM

Extremely well said Ben!!! and TVV brings up very well placed observations as well

As collectors of authentic antique edged weapons, this is a subject that has always been with us, and one that has become increasingly disturbing as the prices gained by these weapons lure the opportunists. As collecting these weapons has increased in popularity, many with the resources simply will approach acquiring without abandon, leaving many serious students of these weapons behind. This is just one of the many factors that has created todays climate of incredibly priced antiques, fakes, authentically intended reproductions and the Frankenstein lot of conglomerations of components.

The dangers of this disturbing amalgam for the serious student of the history and development of weapons is of course that actual history that is held in the weapons themselves is often either completely destroyed, or misrepresented. Even the best intentions of cleaning up the actual weapons takes away all prospects of analyzing the age and original compliance of the components and reduces the weapon to the uncertainty of the world of fakes and reproductions. I would like to say here that serious reproductions are not 'fakes' but in many cases faithful reproductions, which I agree have merit in thier use for reenactment activities. These examples and activities are indeed viable for our study and understanding of the events in which the actual original weapons were used.I believe that the participants deserve considerable praise for the tenacity and resolve they exhibit in thier pursuit of the history and authenticity of the tactics, strategy and in our case, the appropriate use of the weapons.

One of the most confounding situations that complicates the often found 'hybrid' weapons is that many such weapons were in fact contrived during thier working lives, and are indeed authentic antiques in thier own right. Key examples of such weapons are often found in Spanish colonial forms, where frontier blacksmiths often fashioned ersatz weapons for the auxiliary units, using whatever surplus or resources were at hand. Many examples were refurbished in the field, and in the tribal regions of North Africa it is not unusual to see incongruous components together (as seen in the 'mixed up sword' thread). While these weapons due indeed have historic value, the problem is that the preying charlatans often 'create' such examples using parts from scrapped weapons and try to produce exotic pieces to tempt novice collectors. Take it from one who knows

...its a tough but convincing way to learn the difference.

Knowledge is power, and as always 'caveat emptor'!! Deal only with reputable dealers who will not misrepresent thier work, and will guarantee full refund if examination reveals problems. So called 'hybrids' are best acquired when they can be closely examined to verify telltale patination and various marks that reveal age of the work done.

All best regards,
Jim

ariel · 29th July 2007, 11:29 PM

Ben may be onto something.
Victorian copies of Medieval arms and armor are being misinterpreted as real stuff for quite a while.
And sold accordingly

Dajak · 30th July 2007, 12:30 AM

Onto what Ariel ?

Ben

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2007, 02:03 AM

good observation Ariel.

Bill · 30th July 2007, 03:16 AM

I think that a number of 'hybrid' ivory hilted moro kris are showing up. I'd guess a least 4 have been posted on this site fairly receintly. I have no trouble with some one restoring missing parts but think it's a real shame to destroy a legit antique. If a hilt was in poor condition, I can see making a simular hilt & would keep the original with the sword. I hope that who ever is making these hybrid's have saved the old hilts but it appears they are now permently seperated from the swords. IMO, these hybrid's lessen the value of the original.

David · 30th July 2007, 04:03 AM

Bill has a point here. Not just ivory pommels, but silver and other fancy hilts are showing up on weapons that were middle-class in their working days and would never have been graced with such valuable hilts. Obviously the sole purpose in this is to make them more maketable and c ommand higher prices. Most of these seem obvious to me, but i am sure that many a nice hilt has been married to a blade which then passes muster are an original ensemble. I certainly see no prblem with restoring a kris to it's former glory, and sometimes this requires a new hilt or pommel. But it should be one that is suited to and equals the blade, not surpasses it.

Dajak · 30th July 2007, 04:10 AM

Hi Bill this is happening with a lot of weapons also with some mandau in Kuching Borneo they have an old blade put an Handle on it and carved a new scabbard and try to sell it for real old .

The danger from this if people see this stuf and buys them this somethimes bad stuf can become standard .

Ben

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2007, 05:33 AM

right Ben.

kai · 30th July 2007, 09:48 AM

Hello Bill and other forumites,

Quote:

I think that a number of 'hybrid' ivory hilted moro kris are showing up. I'd guess a least 4 have been posted on this site fairly receintly. I have no trouble with some one restoring missing parts but think it's a real shame to destroy a legit antique.

Creating antique-looking composites (solely forged for market reasons) has been going on for a long time both in collector communities as well as in the respective countries of origin. Utilizing genuine, old spare parts or patination of newly crafted pieces are obvious strategies - both of which destroy a piece of historic evidence as has been noted already. (Of course, the same is true for removing parts from an existing ensemble be it a hilt from a kozuka blade, a relief from a temple, or a relic from an archeological site...

)

Quote:

If a hilt was in poor condition, I can see making a simular hilt & would keep the original with the sword. I hope that who ever is making these hybrid's have saved the old hilts but it appears they are now permently seperated from the swords.

Sure, not only will the connection be lost (the main goal of forgery) but also most damaged parts will get discarded. OTOH, fittings have often been exchanged at the whims of the owner already in the original cultures which makes it hard to draw a clear line. Short of scientific analyses, one will often only be able to guess from the age of patina, bindings and other materials used wether the change was still done in the "good, ol' times" rather than more recently.

Quote:

IMO, these hybrid's lessen the value of the original.

We should also keep in mind that in most cases new materials are being artificially aged and that, for example, newly sourced ivory has most certainly been obtained in an unsustainable as well as generally unethical way.

Regards,
Kai

Dajak · 31st July 2007, 01:01 PM

Hi don t forget they use old wood let it outside for a few years and no one can tell that it is not 100 years old if they use traditional tools .
I did see this a lot in Indonesie .

Ben

29th July 2007, 05:58 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	Extremely well said Ben!!! and TVV brings up very well placed observations as well As collectors of authentic antique edged weapons, this is a subject that has always been with us, and one that has become increasingly disturbing as the prices gained by these weapons lure the opportunists. As collecting these weapons has increased in popularity, many with the resources simply will approach acquiring without abandon, leaving many serious students of these weapons behind. This is just one of the many factors that has created todays climate of incredibly priced antiques, fakes, authentically intended reproductions and the Frankenstein lot of conglomerations of components. The dangers of this disturbing amalgam for the serious student of the history and development of weapons is of course that actual history that is held in the weapons themselves is often either completely destroyed, or misrepresented. Even the best intentions of cleaning up the actual weapons takes away all prospects of analyzing the age and original compliance of the components and reduces the weapon to the uncertainty of the world of fakes and reproductions. I would like to say here that serious reproductions are not 'fakes' but in many cases faithful reproductions, which I agree have merit in thier use for reenactment activities. These examples and activities are indeed viable for our study and understanding of the events in which the actual original weapons were used.I believe that the participants deserve considerable praise for the tenacity and resolve they exhibit in thier pursuit of the history and authenticity of the tactics, strategy and in our case, the appropriate use of the weapons. One of the most confounding situations that complicates the often found 'hybrid' weapons is that many such weapons were in fact contrived during thier working lives, and are indeed authentic antiques in thier own right. Key examples of such weapons are often found in Spanish colonial forms, where frontier blacksmiths often fashioned ersatz weapons for the auxiliary units, using whatever surplus or resources were at hand. Many examples were refurbished in the field, and in the tribal regions of North Africa it is not unusual to see incongruous components together (as seen in the 'mixed up sword' thread). While these weapons due indeed have historic value, the problem is that the preying charlatans often 'create' such examples using parts from scrapped weapons and try to produce exotic pieces to tempt novice collectors. Take it from one who knows...its a tough but convincing way to learn the difference. Knowledge is power, and as always 'caveat emptor'!! Deal only with reputable dealers who will not misrepresent thier work, and will guarantee full refund if examination reveals problems. So called 'hybrids' are best acquired when they can be closely examined to verify telltale patination and various marks that reveal age of the work done. All best regards, Jim

29th July 2007, 11:29 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ben may be onto something. Victorian copies of Medieval arms and armor are being misinterpreted as real stuff for quite a while. And sold accordingly

30th July 2007, 12:30 AM	#3
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Onto what Ariel ? Ben

30th July 2007, 02:03 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	good observation Ariel.

30th July 2007, 03:16 AM	#5
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I think that a number of 'hybrid' ivory hilted moro kris are showing up. I'd guess a least 4 have been posted on this site fairly receintly. I have no trouble with some one restoring missing parts but think it's a real shame to destroy a legit antique. If a hilt was in poor condition, I can see making a simular hilt & would keep the original with the sword. I hope that who ever is making these hybrid's have saved the old hilts but it appears they are now permently seperated from the swords. IMO, these hybrid's lessen the value of the original.

30th July 2007, 04:03 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Bill has a point here. Not just ivory pommels, but silver and other fancy hilts are showing up on weapons that were middle-class in their working days and would never have been graced with such valuable hilts. Obviously the sole purpose in this is to make them more maketable and c ommand higher prices. Most of these seem obvious to me, but i am sure that many a nice hilt has been married to a blade which then passes muster are an original ensemble. I certainly see no prblem with restoring a kris to it's former glory, and sometimes this requires a new hilt or pommel. But it should be one that is suited to and equals the blade, not surpasses it.

30th July 2007, 04:10 AM	#7
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Bill this is happening with a lot of weapons also with some mandau in Kuching Borneo they have an old blade put an Handle on it and carved a new scabbard and try to sell it for real old . The danger from this if people see this stuf and buys them this somethimes bad stuf can become standard . Ben

30th July 2007, 05:33 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	right Ben.

31st July 2007, 01:01 PM	#10
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi don t forget they use old wood let it outside for a few years and no one can tell that it is not 100 years old if they use traditional tools . I did see this a lot in Indonesie . Ben