Ivory hilt dagger with "Tears" and a "Smiley?"

Jens Nordlunde · 29th July 2007, 09:30 AM

Gene, nice Zirah-bhonk, nice pictures

.

The blades can be of different lengths, Stone writes that the blade shown in his book is 6.5 inch’s.

In Indian and Oriental Armour by Lord Egerton of Tatton, I found this in a note on page 138, under #717. “The Z.S. Collection [Musee de Tzarskoe-Selo du Collection D’Armes, St. Petersborg, Russia. It seems as if there are three of these daggers in the collection, but only one is shown in a drawing]. ‘Zirah-bhonk’ (mail piercer) knife of fine Damascus steel, short with a conical point. It is used for piercing through the rings of a coat of mail. One of these knifes is hollowed out along the back, and the grove filled with small pearls which runs backwards and forwards in handling the weapon. It is said en Persian poetry that they represent the tears of the wounded.

In a dagger at the Soltykoff Collection [a Russian prince], there is a grove in the blade filled with a number of small rubies, so that when the dagger is raised the stones glitter like drops of blood. India is perhaps of all countries that which has endowed cruelty with the utmost grace (Industrial Arts, Burty).

The handle of these knives is usually of walrus-tooth ivory which is preferred to that of the elephant as being less likely to split.“

Anthony C. Tirri in Islamic Weapons shows one, on page 214 #151 and writes Persian/North Indian, but only Stone gives a measure of the blade. I do remember having seen one or two with rather big blades, but I think most of the blades were moderate in size.

In Memorials from the Jaypore Exhibition 1883 by Hendley. You can see the same type of knife, the hilt is ivory, this knife was made by a Jaypore armourer, and was sent to the exhibition from the Jaypore armoury (Jaypore/Jeypore/Jaipur was also called Amber). Lt.-colonel Thomas Holbein Hendly had many good friends amongst the Maharajas in Rajasthan, and one of them was Maharaja Madho Singh of Jaypore – at the time of the exhibition the Maharaja was in his twenties. I have seen his data given to 1880-1922, but I am uncertain of, if this is his birth-death dates, or the time he ruled.

Your dagger has Persian influence, but I believe it to be Indian, and this tells us that a likely place to look for its origin will be, Rajasthan, Punjab or, maybe even towards NW frontier, but not to the south. The hilt is interesting, and the bearings/balls running at the back of the hilt is unusual. Congratulations Gene – and don’t forget to enjoy the day

.

Mare Rosu · 29th July 2007, 01:22 PM

Well now I have got the name for my dagger (at least two spellings )
( CharlesS and Jens)and found out that there are other daggers with the "C' cut,(Kronckew, thank you all.
You know when Jens talks everyone listens (or should). His postings are, in my opinion, some of the best going!. His post on my dagger is just outstanding.
Now after I have said that about Jens I now will tell you that my "new" dagger has three pol reversals on it's 5" blade!! I just hope Jens will not start to ask his, noted for, hard questions about the Magnetic properties of the blade.

I hesitate to say this but will take pictures of the blade with three compasses (I still have my supply

) on the blade and post them here,showing all three needles point in a different direction from it's neighbor compass. This is just to show that it exist on this dagger as the thinking behind it is explained in Jens Classic post on Magnetic properties.
Kronckew, can you take a picture of the "C" on you kard? perhaps we can get an answer as to it's purpose and why it was used.
Gene (having a great day)

Jens Nordlunde · 29th July 2007, 02:59 PM

Thanks for the nice words Gene, but you are way too kind, all I did was to look in some of my books and add a few words

.

I have had a look in the books I have on Persian arms – no Zirah-Bhonk. This is strange, as Stone writes it is Persian, but maybe he was mistaken. I did however find one somewhat similar in ‘Weapons of the Islamic World’, it is a catalogue made for an exhibition at The Islamic Gallery in King Faisal Foundation Centre, Riyadh, 1991, page 97 #96. If the text on the picture can’t be read, here it is. ‘An Indian dagger decorated in Johar flakes. The blade and the hilt are both gilded in Kashmiri style. Indian XIVth century A.H. (19th century AD).

kronckew · 29th July 2007, 03:42 PM

hi mare,

here's an overall picture, you can make out the 'C' fairly well.

here's a closeup

(the 'ethnographic' arms at the top of the picture belong to Millie (aka. Balto Millenium), my irish 45mph couch potato)

Jens Nordlunde · 29th July 2007, 04:25 PM

I have seen the ’C’ (smiley) before, but mostly they are not so far down the hilt, those i have seen are almost as if they are a rest to the little finger, but it can not be so in this case – or the little finger must have been veeery big. Even more so, that it on Gene’s hilt is marked with a colour. It does have a meaning, or they would not have made it, but I have a blank spot I am afraid. I am however looking forward to a picture of the magnetic fields. Gene, I was afraid you had sold your collection of compasses after the last big test

.

Come to think of it Gene, is there any decoration at the base of the blade? I don’t know how many balls there are supposed to be, but how many are there in your hilt? The shut seems to be rather big, can the balls fall out?

Mare Rosu · 29th July 2007, 06:22 PM

Kronckew, great pictures you posted, like you dog also, being a dog nut, what breed is it?.
The "Smiley" on your kard is about the same place as it is on mine.
Not in the "pinkie" finger area that Jens has seen before.
I have never seen that cut on a hilt before and hope some of the forum folks Could shed some more light on it. Wounder if it is a maker's mark?
Jens the dark area inside the "smiley" cleaned off as it was just dirt. Used Ren Wax and it came off.
I also did a quick clean on the blade and an acid etch. Found what I think is a temper line on the blade (see pictures), but nothing else, the crucible steel pattern did show up rather nicely though. You can also see a forging crack on the blade.
Jens the slot for the balls/tears is rather large but the ball will not come out and there are 12 steel balls in the slot. I, at first counted 13 but did a recount and there are 12, no Jens one did not fall out.
Anyone got any idea how the ball were placed in the slots?

kronckew · 29th July 2007, 08:23 PM

hi mare,
caution thread veer ahead:

Millie is a retired NGC greyhound, she raced up till 2004 and was a grade A1 just before she was injured and stopped racing (she won her next to last race at 10:1 & made her owner a bundle, then hurt her foot next race when another dog collided with her. i adopted her a few months later to be a companion for me and my other (male) greyhound, Blue - a blue brindle)

Blue was found as a stray puppie & i've had him since he was 10Mo. - he's never raced.
Both on the spare bed: (both are about 65lb each of pure muscle)

end of thread veer zone: we now return you to our normally scheduled subject.

re the balls: i suspect that the channel was cut into the grip, the balls added then the metal cover was set into the grip to retain them. clever craftsmanship could have notched the recess in the ivory such that a slightly sprung hooked area on the retainer clicked into place without need of cement...

rand · 5th August 2007, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thanks for the nice words Gene, but you are way too kind, all I did was to look in some of my books and add a few words

.

I have had a look in the books I have on Persian arms – no Zirah-Bhonk. This is strange, as Stone writes it is Persian, but maybe he was mistaken. I did however find one somewhat similar in ‘Weapons of the Islamic World’, it is a catalogue made for an exhibition at The Islamic Gallery in King Faisal Foundation Centre, Riyadh, 1991, page 97 #96. If the text on the picture can’t be read, here it is. ‘An Indian dagger decorated in Johar flakes. The blade and the hilt are both gilded in Kashmiri style. Indian XIVth century A.H. (19th century AD).

Stone acknowledges that his work may have errors to be corrected later, he knew his book was part of a beginning to the understanding and appreciation of arms and armor.

Edgerton has a similar admission in his book on Indian Arms and Armor.

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 5th August 2007, 09:25 PM

Rand, does this mean that you think this dagger is likely to come from the NNW, rather than from Persia - I do, but I can't prove it yet.
Yes, there are errors in Stone as well as in Egerton, but they have given us a lot of knowledge as well, and writing books like they did, without errors would be almost impossible, even to day, as many of the 'newer' books also have errors.

rand · 5th August 2007, 09:55 PM

hey Jens,

I see Indian work written all over this dagger. Look at the wootz, its dense and grey, a flambouyant armor piercing blade, the chisel work on the bird with triangular edges.

You will find this type dagger categorized many times as Indian and not so often as Persian. Although I do believe there are Persian exaamples too. The Persian asthetics are more refined and less opulant.

This in no way is to take away from this dagger, its a very desirable item.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this dagger have Indian elephant ivory for the grip scales? If it does that would be another indication of Mughal taste.

Oh Jen, have found more examples of that chevron design similar to your tulwar on armor, most of it 16th -17th century. There is also some sumptuous Russian armor with the chevron designs. Persia lost Armenia and the Caucasus to Russia in the 19th century so you can see how it becomes harder and harder to say something is from somewhere.

Brian...are you reading this? Whats your opinion?

The simple designs tend to be early and the Persian work a less is more attitude, where as Mughal work can tend to be more is better. Can be a reflection of the need and desire for individualism.

Hope you find a treasure during you travels Jen,

rand

Mare Rosu · 5th August 2007, 11:18 PM

Rand, Jens:
More great information coming from you folks

Rand you think it may be Elephant Ivory on the dagger? Can you or Jens or anyone else,tell me what to look for in trying to determine just what kind of Ivory it is. Could it be bone even? I may be able to take a close up of the "wings" if that would help.
Gene

29th July 2007, 02:59 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thanks for the nice words Gene, but you are way too kind, all I did was to look in some of my books and add a few words. I have had a look in the books I have on Persian arms – no Zirah-Bhonk. This is strange, as Stone writes it is Persian, but maybe he was mistaken. I did however find one somewhat similar in ‘Weapons of the Islamic World’, it is a catalogue made for an exhibition at The Islamic Gallery in King Faisal Foundation Centre, Riyadh, 1991, page 97 #96. If the text on the picture can’t be read, here it is. ‘An Indian dagger decorated in Johar flakes. The blade and the hilt are both gilded in Kashmiri style. Indian XIVth century A.H. (19th century AD). Attached Images

29th July 2007, 04:25 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I have seen the ’C’ (smiley) before, but mostly they are not so far down the hilt, those i have seen are almost as if they are a rest to the little finger, but it can not be so in this case – or the little finger must have been veeery big. Even more so, that it on Gene’s hilt is marked with a colour. It does have a meaning, or they would not have made it, but I have a blank spot I am afraid. I am however looking forward to a picture of the magnetic fields. Gene, I was afraid you had sold your collection of compasses after the last big test. Come to think of it Gene, is there any decoration at the base of the blade? I don’t know how many balls there are supposed to be, but how many are there in your hilt? The shut seems to be rather big, can the balls fall out? Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 29th July 2007 at 04:41 PM.

29th July 2007, 06:22 PM	#6
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Kronckew, great pictures you posted, like you dog also, being a dog nut, what breed is it?. The "Smiley" on your kard is about the same place as it is on mine. Not in the "pinkie" finger area that Jens has seen before. I have never seen that cut on a hilt before and hope some of the forum folks Could shed some more light on it. Wounder if it is a maker's mark? Jens the dark area inside the "smiley" cleaned off as it was just dirt. Used Ren Wax and it came off. I also did a quick clean on the blade and an acid etch. Found what I think is a temper line on the blade (see pictures), but nothing else, the crucible steel pattern did show up rather nicely though. You can also see a forging crack on the blade. Jens the slot for the balls/tears is rather large but the ball will not come out and there are 12 steel balls in the slot. I, at first counted 13 but did a recount and there are 12, no Jens one did not fall out. Anyone got any idea how the ball were placed in the slots? Attached Images Last edited by Mare Rosu; 29th July 2007 at 06:37 PM.

5th August 2007, 09:55 PM	#10
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Dagger hey Jens, I see Indian work written all over this dagger. Look at the wootz, its dense and grey, a flambouyant armor piercing blade, the chisel work on the bird with triangular edges. You will find this type dagger categorized many times as Indian and not so often as Persian. Although I do believe there are Persian exaamples too. The Persian asthetics are more refined and less opulant. This in no way is to take away from this dagger, its a very desirable item. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this dagger have Indian elephant ivory for the grip scales? If it does that would be another indication of Mughal taste. Oh Jen, have found more examples of that chevron design similar to your tulwar on armor, most of it 16th -17th century. There is also some sumptuous Russian armor with the chevron designs. Persia lost Armenia and the Caucasus to Russia in the 19th century so you can see how it becomes harder and harder to say something is from somewhere. Brian...are you reading this? Whats your opinion? The simple designs tend to be early and the Persian work a less is more attitude, where as Mughal work can tend to be more is better. Can be a reflection of the need and desire for individualism. Hope you find a treasure during you travels Jen, rand

5th August 2007, 11:18 PM	#11
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	IVORY? WHAT TYPE? Rand, Jens: More great information coming from you folks Rand you think it may be Elephant Ivory on the dagger? Can you or Jens or anyone else,tell me what to look for in trying to determine just what kind of Ivory it is. Could it be bone even? I may be able to take a close up of the "wings" if that would help. Gene

29th July 2007, 09:30 AM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gene, nice Zirah-bhonk, nice pictures. The blades can be of different lengths, Stone writes that the blade shown in his book is 6.5 inch’s. In Indian and Oriental Armour by Lord Egerton of Tatton, I found this in a note on page 138, under #717. “The Z.S. Collection [Musee de Tzarskoe-Selo du Collection D’Armes, St. Petersborg, Russia. It seems as if there are three of these daggers in the collection, but only one is shown in a drawing]. ‘Zirah-bhonk’ (mail piercer) knife of fine Damascus steel, short with a conical point. It is used for piercing through the rings of a coat of mail. One of these knifes is hollowed out along the back, and the grove filled with small pearls which runs backwards and forwards in handling the weapon. It is said en Persian poetry that they represent the tears of the wounded. In a dagger at the Soltykoff Collection [a Russian prince], there is a grove in the blade filled with a number of small rubies, so that when the dagger is raised the stones glitter like drops of blood. India is perhaps of all countries that which has endowed cruelty with the utmost grace (Industrial Arts, Burty). The handle of these knives is usually of walrus-tooth ivory which is preferred to that of the elephant as being less likely to split.“ Anthony C. Tirri in Islamic Weapons shows one, on page 214 #151 and writes Persian/North Indian, but only Stone gives a measure of the blade. I do remember having seen one or two with rather big blades, but I think most of the blades were moderate in size. In Memorials from the Jaypore Exhibition 1883 by Hendley. You can see the same type of knife, the hilt is ivory, this knife was made by a Jaypore armourer, and was sent to the exhibition from the Jaypore armoury (Jaypore/Jeypore/Jaipur was also called Amber). Lt.-colonel Thomas Holbein Hendly had many good friends amongst the Maharajas in Rajasthan, and one of them was Maharaja Madho Singh of Jaypore – at the time of the exhibition the Maharaja was in his twenties. I have seen his data given to 1880-1922, but I am uncertain of, if this is his birth-death dates, or the time he ruled. Your dagger has Persian influence, but I believe it to be Indian, and this tells us that a likely place to look for its origin will be, Rajasthan, Punjab or, maybe even towards NW frontier, but not to the south. The hilt is interesting, and the bearings/balls running at the back of the hilt is unusual. Congratulations Gene – and don’t forget to enjoy the day.

29th July 2007, 01:22 PM	#2
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Well now I have got the name for my dagger (at least two spellings ) ( CharlesS and Jens)and found out that there are other daggers with the "C' cut,(Kronckew, thank you all. You know when Jens talks everyone listens (or should). His postings are, in my opinion, some of the best going!. His post on my dagger is just outstanding. Now after I have said that about Jens I now will tell you that my "new" dagger has three pol reversals on it's 5" blade!! I just hope Jens will not start to ask his, noted for, hard questions about the Magnetic properties of the blade. I hesitate to say this but will take pictures of the blade with three compasses (I still have my supply ) on the blade and post them here,showing all three needles point in a different direction from it's neighbor compass. This is just to show that it exist on this dagger as the thinking behind it is explained in Jens Classic post on Magnetic properties. Kronckew, can you take a picture of the "C" on you kard? perhaps we can get an answer as to it's purpose and why it was used. Gene (having a great day)

29th July 2007, 03:42 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	hi mare, here's an overall picture, you can make out the 'C' fairly well. here's a closeup (the 'ethnographic' arms at the top of the picture belong to Millie (aka. Balto Millenium), my irish 45mph couch potato)

29th July 2007, 08:23 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	hi mare, caution thread veer ahead: Millie is a retired NGC greyhound, she raced up till 2004 and was a grade A1 just before she was injured and stopped racing (she won her next to last race at 10:1 & made her owner a bundle, then hurt her foot next race when another dog collided with her. i adopted her a few months later to be a companion for me and my other (male) greyhound, Blue - a blue brindle) Blue was found as a stray puppie & i've had him since he was 10Mo. - he's never raced. Both on the spare bed: (both are about 65lb each of pure muscle) end of thread veer zone: we now return you to our normally scheduled subject. re the balls: i suspect that the channel was cut into the grip, the balls added then the metal cover was set into the grip to retain them. clever craftsmanship could have notched the recess in the ivory such that a slightly sprung hooked area on the retainer clicked into place without need of cement...

5th August 2007, 09:25 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Rand, does this mean that you think this dagger is likely to come from the NNW, rather than from Persia - I do, but I can't prove it yet. Yes, there are errors in Stone as well as in Egerton, but they have given us a lot of knowledge as well, and writing books like they did, without errors would be almost impossible, even to day, as many of the 'newer' books also have errors.