Ivory hilt dagger with "Tears" and a "Smiley?"

CharlesS · 28th July 2007, 02:20 PM

This dagger is an example of an Indo-Persian 'zirah bouk', or 'mail(armor) piercer'.

It's an exceptional quality example, if slightly smaller than most.

kronckew · 28th July 2007, 07:32 PM

similar zira bouk, koftgari hand grip, pattern welded blade - 11 in. overall

i suspect it is a bit newer than yours

i have a Kard with the same 'C' cut on the lower portion of the grip which is also cut into the tang such that the tang aft of the cut is a mm or so higher from the cut to the pommel end, the step is noticeable.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th July 2007, 09:30 AM

Gene, nice Zirah-bhonk, nice pictures

.

The blades can be of different lengths, Stone writes that the blade shown in his book is 6.5 inch’s.

In Indian and Oriental Armour by Lord Egerton of Tatton, I found this in a note on page 138, under #717. “The Z.S. Collection [Musee de Tzarskoe-Selo du Collection D’Armes, St. Petersborg, Russia. It seems as if there are three of these daggers in the collection, but only one is shown in a drawing]. ‘Zirah-bhonk’ (mail piercer) knife of fine Damascus steel, short with a conical point. It is used for piercing through the rings of a coat of mail. One of these knifes is hollowed out along the back, and the grove filled with small pearls which runs backwards and forwards in handling the weapon. It is said en Persian poetry that they represent the tears of the wounded.

In a dagger at the Soltykoff Collection [a Russian prince], there is a grove in the blade filled with a number of small rubies, so that when the dagger is raised the stones glitter like drops of blood. India is perhaps of all countries that which has endowed cruelty with the utmost grace (Industrial Arts, Burty).

The handle of these knives is usually of walrus-tooth ivory which is preferred to that of the elephant as being less likely to split.“

Anthony C. Tirri in Islamic Weapons shows one, on page 214 #151 and writes Persian/North Indian, but only Stone gives a measure of the blade. I do remember having seen one or two with rather big blades, but I think most of the blades were moderate in size.

In Memorials from the Jaypore Exhibition 1883 by Hendley. You can see the same type of knife, the hilt is ivory, this knife was made by a Jaypore armourer, and was sent to the exhibition from the Jaypore armoury (Jaypore/Jeypore/Jaipur was also called Amber). Lt.-colonel Thomas Holbein Hendly had many good friends amongst the Maharajas in Rajasthan, and one of them was Maharaja Madho Singh of Jaypore – at the time of the exhibition the Maharaja was in his twenties. I have seen his data given to 1880-1922, but I am uncertain of, if this is his birth-death dates, or the time he ruled.

Your dagger has Persian influence, but I believe it to be Indian, and this tells us that a likely place to look for its origin will be, Rajasthan, Punjab or, maybe even towards NW frontier, but not to the south. The hilt is interesting, and the bearings/balls running at the back of the hilt is unusual. Congratulations Gene – and don’t forget to enjoy the day

.

Mare Rosu · 29th July 2007, 01:22 PM

Well now I have got the name for my dagger (at least two spellings )
( CharlesS and Jens)and found out that there are other daggers with the "C' cut,(Kronckew, thank you all.
You know when Jens talks everyone listens (or should). His postings are, in my opinion, some of the best going!. His post on my dagger is just outstanding.
Now after I have said that about Jens I now will tell you that my "new" dagger has three pol reversals on it's 5" blade!! I just hope Jens will not start to ask his, noted for, hard questions about the Magnetic properties of the blade.

I hesitate to say this but will take pictures of the blade with three compasses (I still have my supply

) on the blade and post them here,showing all three needles point in a different direction from it's neighbor compass. This is just to show that it exist on this dagger as the thinking behind it is explained in Jens Classic post on Magnetic properties.
Kronckew, can you take a picture of the "C" on you kard? perhaps we can get an answer as to it's purpose and why it was used.
Gene (having a great day)

Jens Nordlunde · 29th July 2007, 02:59 PM

Thanks for the nice words Gene, but you are way too kind, all I did was to look in some of my books and add a few words

.

I have had a look in the books I have on Persian arms – no Zirah-Bhonk. This is strange, as Stone writes it is Persian, but maybe he was mistaken. I did however find one somewhat similar in ‘Weapons of the Islamic World’, it is a catalogue made for an exhibition at The Islamic Gallery in King Faisal Foundation Centre, Riyadh, 1991, page 97 #96. If the text on the picture can’t be read, here it is. ‘An Indian dagger decorated in Johar flakes. The blade and the hilt are both gilded in Kashmiri style. Indian XIVth century A.H. (19th century AD).

kronckew · 29th July 2007, 03:42 PM

hi mare,

here's an overall picture, you can make out the 'C' fairly well.

here's a closeup

(the 'ethnographic' arms at the top of the picture belong to Millie (aka. Balto Millenium), my irish 45mph couch potato)

Jens Nordlunde · 29th July 2007, 04:25 PM

I have seen the ’C’ (smiley) before, but mostly they are not so far down the hilt, those i have seen are almost as if they are a rest to the little finger, but it can not be so in this case – or the little finger must have been veeery big. Even more so, that it on Gene’s hilt is marked with a colour. It does have a meaning, or they would not have made it, but I have a blank spot I am afraid. I am however looking forward to a picture of the magnetic fields. Gene, I was afraid you had sold your collection of compasses after the last big test

.

Come to think of it Gene, is there any decoration at the base of the blade? I don’t know how many balls there are supposed to be, but how many are there in your hilt? The shut seems to be rather big, can the balls fall out?

rand · 5th August 2007, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thanks for the nice words Gene, but you are way too kind, all I did was to look in some of my books and add a few words

.

I have had a look in the books I have on Persian arms – no Zirah-Bhonk. This is strange, as Stone writes it is Persian, but maybe he was mistaken. I did however find one somewhat similar in ‘Weapons of the Islamic World’, it is a catalogue made for an exhibition at The Islamic Gallery in King Faisal Foundation Centre, Riyadh, 1991, page 97 #96. If the text on the picture can’t be read, here it is. ‘An Indian dagger decorated in Johar flakes. The blade and the hilt are both gilded in Kashmiri style. Indian XIVth century A.H. (19th century AD).

Stone acknowledges that his work may have errors to be corrected later, he knew his book was part of a beginning to the understanding and appreciation of arms and armor.

Edgerton has a similar admission in his book on Indian Arms and Armor.

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 5th August 2007, 09:25 PM

Rand, does this mean that you think this dagger is likely to come from the NNW, rather than from Persia - I do, but I can't prove it yet.
Yes, there are errors in Stone as well as in Egerton, but they have given us a lot of knowledge as well, and writing books like they did, without errors would be almost impossible, even to day, as many of the 'newer' books also have errors.

29th July 2007, 09:30 AM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gene, nice Zirah-bhonk, nice pictures. The blades can be of different lengths, Stone writes that the blade shown in his book is 6.5 inch’s. In Indian and Oriental Armour by Lord Egerton of Tatton, I found this in a note on page 138, under #717. “The Z.S. Collection [Musee de Tzarskoe-Selo du Collection D’Armes, St. Petersborg, Russia. It seems as if there are three of these daggers in the collection, but only one is shown in a drawing]. ‘Zirah-bhonk’ (mail piercer) knife of fine Damascus steel, short with a conical point. It is used for piercing through the rings of a coat of mail. One of these knifes is hollowed out along the back, and the grove filled with small pearls which runs backwards and forwards in handling the weapon. It is said en Persian poetry that they represent the tears of the wounded. In a dagger at the Soltykoff Collection [a Russian prince], there is a grove in the blade filled with a number of small rubies, so that when the dagger is raised the stones glitter like drops of blood. India is perhaps of all countries that which has endowed cruelty with the utmost grace (Industrial Arts, Burty). The handle of these knives is usually of walrus-tooth ivory which is preferred to that of the elephant as being less likely to split.“ Anthony C. Tirri in Islamic Weapons shows one, on page 214 #151 and writes Persian/North Indian, but only Stone gives a measure of the blade. I do remember having seen one or two with rather big blades, but I think most of the blades were moderate in size. In Memorials from the Jaypore Exhibition 1883 by Hendley. You can see the same type of knife, the hilt is ivory, this knife was made by a Jaypore armourer, and was sent to the exhibition from the Jaypore armoury (Jaypore/Jeypore/Jaipur was also called Amber). Lt.-colonel Thomas Holbein Hendly had many good friends amongst the Maharajas in Rajasthan, and one of them was Maharaja Madho Singh of Jaypore – at the time of the exhibition the Maharaja was in his twenties. I have seen his data given to 1880-1922, but I am uncertain of, if this is his birth-death dates, or the time he ruled. Your dagger has Persian influence, but I believe it to be Indian, and this tells us that a likely place to look for its origin will be, Rajasthan, Punjab or, maybe even towards NW frontier, but not to the south. The hilt is interesting, and the bearings/balls running at the back of the hilt is unusual. Congratulations Gene – and don’t forget to enjoy the day.

29th July 2007, 02:59 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thanks for the nice words Gene, but you are way too kind, all I did was to look in some of my books and add a few words. I have had a look in the books I have on Persian arms – no Zirah-Bhonk. This is strange, as Stone writes it is Persian, but maybe he was mistaken. I did however find one somewhat similar in ‘Weapons of the Islamic World’, it is a catalogue made for an exhibition at The Islamic Gallery in King Faisal Foundation Centre, Riyadh, 1991, page 97 #96. If the text on the picture can’t be read, here it is. ‘An Indian dagger decorated in Johar flakes. The blade and the hilt are both gilded in Kashmiri style. Indian XIVth century A.H. (19th century AD). Attached Images

28th July 2007, 02:20 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	This dagger is an example of an Indo-Persian 'zirah bouk', or 'mail(armor) piercer'. It's an exceptional quality example, if slightly smaller than most.

28th July 2007, 07:32 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	similar zira bouk, koftgari hand grip, pattern welded blade - 11 in. overall i suspect it is a bit newer than yours i have a Kard with the same 'C' cut on the lower portion of the grip which is also cut into the tang such that the tang aft of the cut is a mm or so higher from the cut to the pommel end, the step is noticeable.

29th July 2007, 01:22 PM	#4
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Well now I have got the name for my dagger (at least two spellings ) ( CharlesS and Jens)and found out that there are other daggers with the "C' cut,(Kronckew, thank you all. You know when Jens talks everyone listens (or should). His postings are, in my opinion, some of the best going!. His post on my dagger is just outstanding. Now after I have said that about Jens I now will tell you that my "new" dagger has three pol reversals on it's 5" blade!! I just hope Jens will not start to ask his, noted for, hard questions about the Magnetic properties of the blade. I hesitate to say this but will take pictures of the blade with three compasses (I still have my supply ) on the blade and post them here,showing all three needles point in a different direction from it's neighbor compass. This is just to show that it exist on this dagger as the thinking behind it is explained in Jens Classic post on Magnetic properties. Kronckew, can you take a picture of the "C" on you kard? perhaps we can get an answer as to it's purpose and why it was used. Gene (having a great day)

29th July 2007, 03:42 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	hi mare, here's an overall picture, you can make out the 'C' fairly well. here's a closeup (the 'ethnographic' arms at the top of the picture belong to Millie (aka. Balto Millenium), my irish 45mph couch potato)

29th July 2007, 04:25 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I have seen the ’C’ (smiley) before, but mostly they are not so far down the hilt, those i have seen are almost as if they are a rest to the little finger, but it can not be so in this case – or the little finger must have been veeery big. Even more so, that it on Gene’s hilt is marked with a colour. It does have a meaning, or they would not have made it, but I have a blank spot I am afraid. I am however looking forward to a picture of the magnetic fields. Gene, I was afraid you had sold your collection of compasses after the last big test. Come to think of it Gene, is there any decoration at the base of the blade? I don’t know how many balls there are supposed to be, but how many are there in your hilt? The shut seems to be rather big, can the balls fall out? Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 29th July 2007 at 04:41 PM.

5th August 2007, 09:25 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Rand, does this mean that you think this dagger is likely to come from the NNW, rather than from Persia - I do, but I can't prove it yet. Yes, there are errors in Stone as well as in Egerton, but they have given us a lot of knowledge as well, and writing books like they did, without errors would be almost impossible, even to day, as many of the 'newer' books also have errors.