Bugis Celebes Keris / info on age/dapur ?

David · 26th July 2007, 01:02 PM

I would have leaned towards Sulawesi in describing this hilt as well...but then nailing down the origins of various Bugis forms is certainly not my strong suit. Rather than say it may be this or that it would certainly be helpful to those of us who struggle with these identifications to qualify one's opinion with some reasoning (i.e. the way the hilt curves here implies this or the way it is carved there implies that). Of course, better pictures will no doubt help these qualified assessments.
The qualities that determine Bugis sheath origin are much more vague for me than the for hilts. I know Shahrial and Kai Wee have touched on this subject before, but for the most part i still find myself guessing.

Willem, better picture sure would help. I get the feeling that your camera's color balance might be off a bit, since i wouldn't have thought the pendokok was gold at first. Check to see that you are set for the right white balance. If you camera only has auto white balance try shooting on a day when there is brighter light. If you are having problems holding the camera steady try using a tripod. You probably shouldn't try to hand-hold exposures slower that 1/60 of a second. Also know the limitations of your camera. It looks as though you may have taken some pictures that are closer that the camera is able to focus. If so it would be better to back off a bit and then enlarge the photo somewhat in post production by cropping.

Henk · 26th July 2007, 01:45 PM

There are different ways to remove the ukiran and those methods are described in the forum before.

The first one is putting the keris in the furnace and heat the blade and ukiran. Control it well and try gently to turn off the ukiran. Another method is to heat the blade with a candle just at the base beneath the gonjo. That will warm up the pesi. Glue or resin will become soft again and release the ukiran.

asomotif · 26th July 2007, 02:31 PM

Thanks Kai and Alam Shah for the compliments.

I will try to (very) gently heat the blade and see is some movement is achieved. also indeed to remove rust from the peksi, otherwise in time the rust will surely crack the hilt.

I only know elefant from hippo ivory, so sea cow did not pass my mind yet.
Could well be Sea Cow indeed. enclosed maybe a better picture of the hilt.

Newsteel · 27th July 2007, 03:06 AM

I am infact much fascinated by the pamor (raja abala raja). This is unique and rare pamor for a bugis at least.

About the ivory, what is needed is to observe the grain lines. Couldn't see much from the pictures.

A. G. Maisey · 27th July 2007, 03:25 AM

I would caution against putting the blade and hilt into a furnace or oven, and even against putting the blade into a furnace or oven, with the hilt outside the heat.

Heating the base of the blade is the usual method to remove a hilt.

A candle or small kerosene lamp is safe, I use a propane torch, but I would not recommend this to anybody who has not had a lot of experience in the use of propane torches. If you hold the blade a few inches down from where the heat is applied to the blade you will easily know when you have heated sufficiently.

Line the jaws of a vice with plenty of newspaper and place the blade into the vice sideways.As already recommended, reheat and try again if you do not succeed the first time, however, you must be aware of the risk that if the tang is heavily rusted, it is possible to break the tang in attempts to remove it, no matter how gentle those attempts may be.

kai · 27th July 2007, 08:51 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I would caution against putting the blade and hilt into a furnace or oven, and even against putting the blade into a furnace or oven, with the hilt outside the heat.

Yeah, I'd be very hesitant to place any wood or horn (and any material with hairline cracks into an oven...

Using those padded kitchen gloves, you can also protect the hilt from radiating heat which helps to keep the stress (e.g. on hairline cracks) minimal.

Quote:

Line the jaws of a vice with plenty of newspaper and place the blade into the vice sideways.

I prefer to hold the blade in my hand for better control. Gloves do help to avoid getting bitten...

Quote:

As already recommended, reheat and try again if you do not succeed the first time, however, you must be aware of the risk that if the tang is heavily rusted, it is possible to break the tang in attempts to remove it, no matter how gentle those attempts may be.

Thanks for the added caution!

BTW, did you ever experienced a "northern" keris tang breaking? These are usually pretty sturdy (and, of course, shorter). Just curious (Willem's keris won't be a problem IMVHO)...

Regards,
Kai

asomotif · 27th July 2007, 09:44 AM

Forunately we have an oven with gas (propane or whatever it is that comes from beneath the surface of our country.)

There is a very small flame for preparing lovely tender beef dishes like rendang

This same flame was perfect for slowely heating the blade.
Tried it 3 times, but not the smallest movement.

Indeed I hold the blade wrapped with some cloth to keep a good grip and still have feeling with the material.
As there was no movement at all, I will not try to force it and poored 2 drops of oils into the pendokok and will let it lay for a while.

Will try to place some better pictures of the hilt this afternoon

26th July 2007, 02:31 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Thanks Kai and Alam Shah for the compliments. I will try to (very) gently heat the blade and see is some movement is achieved. also indeed to remove rust from the peksi, otherwise in time the rust will surely crack the hilt. I only know elefant from hippo ivory, so sea cow did not pass my mind yet. Could well be Sea Cow indeed. enclosed maybe a better picture of the hilt. Attached Images

26th July 2007, 01:02 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,231	I would have leaned towards Sulawesi in describing this hilt as well...but then nailing down the origins of various Bugis forms is certainly not my strong suit. Rather than say it may be this or that it would certainly be helpful to those of us who struggle with these identifications to qualify one's opinion with some reasoning (i.e. the way the hilt curves here implies this or the way it is carved there implies that). Of course, better pictures will no doubt help these qualified assessments. The qualities that determine Bugis sheath origin are much more vague for me than the for hilts. I know Shahrial and Kai Wee have touched on this subject before, but for the most part i still find myself guessing. Willem, better picture sure would help. I get the feeling that your camera's color balance might be off a bit, since i wouldn't have thought the pendokok was gold at first. Check to see that you are set for the right white balance. If you camera only has auto white balance try shooting on a day when there is brighter light. If you are having problems holding the camera steady try using a tripod. You probably shouldn't try to hand-hold exposures slower that 1/60 of a second. Also know the limitations of your camera. It looks as though you may have taken some pictures that are closer that the camera is able to focus. If so it would be better to back off a bit and then enlarge the photo somewhat in post production by cropping.

26th July 2007, 01:45 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	There are different ways to remove the ukiran and those methods are described in the forum before. The first one is putting the keris in the furnace and heat the blade and ukiran. Control it well and try gently to turn off the ukiran. Another method is to heat the blade with a candle just at the base beneath the gonjo. That will warm up the pesi. Glue or resin will become soft again and release the ukiran.

27th July 2007, 03:06 AM	#4
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	I am infact much fascinated by the pamor (raja abala raja). This is unique and rare pamor for a bugis at least. About the ivory, what is needed is to observe the grain lines. Couldn't see much from the pictures.

27th July 2007, 03:25 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,053	I would caution against putting the blade and hilt into a furnace or oven, and even against putting the blade into a furnace or oven, with the hilt outside the heat. Heating the base of the blade is the usual method to remove a hilt. A candle or small kerosene lamp is safe, I use a propane torch, but I would not recommend this to anybody who has not had a lot of experience in the use of propane torches. If you hold the blade a few inches down from where the heat is applied to the blade you will easily know when you have heated sufficiently. Line the jaws of a vice with plenty of newspaper and place the blade into the vice sideways.As already recommended, reheat and try again if you do not succeed the first time, however, you must be aware of the risk that if the tang is heavily rusted, it is possible to break the tang in attempts to remove it, no matter how gentle those attempts may be.

27th July 2007, 09:44 AM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Forunately we have an oven with gas (propane or whatever it is that comes from beneath the surface of our country.) There is a very small flame for preparing lovely tender beef dishes like rendang This same flame was perfect for slowely heating the blade. Tried it 3 times, but not the smallest movement. Indeed I hold the blade wrapped with some cloth to keep a good grip and still have feeling with the material. As there was no movement at all, I will not try to force it and poored 2 drops of oils into the pendokok and will let it lay for a while. Will try to place some better pictures of the hilt this afternoon