Bugis Celebes Keris / info on age/dapur ?

Henk · 25th July 2007, 08:51 PM

I completely agree with David

The ukiran is probably sea ivory. About the fitting of it see the comment of David.

The loop is often seen on Bugis or Sumatran keris. AFAIK it is only seen on Sumatra. The function of it is for me unknown. I guess it is ceremonial and the cord was mostly covered with gold (suasa) or silver and dressed up with stones. But there where also more simple loops like yours. The functional use for it what I can think of is attaching the keris to the belt.

Age of a keris is very hard to tell. With this blade I wouldn't try to guess.

Battara · 25th July 2007, 09:51 PM

Are the mounts tarnished silver or gilded silver (which it looks likely).

I agree with needing better pictures for the ivory - some did trade in hippo ivory in the region.

Alam Shah · 26th July 2007, 12:46 AM

The wrapping to the bottom half of the sheath seems missing.

Blade-wise, a very good blade indeed, with pamor Raja Abala Raja.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Any suggestions how such a loop should be fixed ?

The loop is known as toli-toli. Normally, this type of keris is worn with a type of sash with a loop at the bottom end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

The loop is often seen on Bugis or Sumatran keris. AFAIK it is only seen on Sumatra. The function of it is for me unknown. I guess it is ceremonial and the cord was mostly covered with gold (suasa) or silver and dressed up with stones. But there where also more simple loops like yours. The functional use for it what I can think of is attaching the keris to the belt.

I believe the loop originated from Bugis Sulawesi. We can see it on older examples in many museums and books. Keris from Bima, Gowa... with the golden hilts etc. Bugis influence gradually grew on Sumatra, Riau-Lingga archipelago and elsewhere, so does it's keris and fittings.

The sheath cross-piece looks Malay... the hilt suggests Sumatra.
I agree that the loop is a possible later addition... but quite sometime back.
Looking at it again... basing on the hilt/hilt ring, unable to fit nicely... is it a composite piece?

Rick · 26th July 2007, 02:10 AM

Great looking pamor; one I haven't seen before .

asomotif · 26th July 2007, 08:34 AM

Lot of questions and answers. thanks in advance.

- The wrapping of the sheath is intact, I will try to make some pictures in focus.

- The hilt and pendokok/selut are completely tight on the blade, no movement at all. considering the material of the hilt I am somewhat reluctant to try and get it loose. any suggestions ?

- the selut looks like solid gold, and the the mountings on the scabbard maybe gold on silver. I will go and see a goldsmith to be sure on that.

- as for the composite suggestion. it might be, but than before 1940.
and certainly not with the poorest of materials.

kai · 26th July 2007, 09:15 AM

Hello Willem,

Congrats!

Quote:

The hilt and pendokok/selut are completely tight on the blade, no movement at all. considering the material of the hilt I am somewhat reluctant to try and get it loose. any suggestions ?

The pendokok doesn't move, too?

There's a good chance that the blade is still fixed with resin: Carefully heating the base of the blade and gently trying to turn the hilt will probably allow you to remove the hilt. Go slowly - if it doesn't move, let it cool down and try repeated heating cycles. This also works if the pesi sticks to the hilt due to corrosion (rust may crack the hilt in the long run and it would be preferable to clean the pesi). However, since this piece has been in a collection for a long time (and probably not deteriorated any further since WW2) it may be questionable wether there's any real need for restoration. OTOH, it would be nice to close the gap between pendokok and blade if the hole in the hilt is long enough to completely cover the pesi. If the pesi is "too long," this would seem to be a safe sign for a composite piece.

Sharial, are you sure that the hilt is not from Sulawesi?

Regards,
Kai

Alam Shah · 26th July 2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

... as for the composite suggestion. it might be, but than before 1940. and certainly not with the poorest of materials.

Agreed... that the materials are of good taste with fine worksmanship... the hilt cup, sheath wrapping and end-piece... even if it is composite. With this blade, it deserves the existing dressings...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Sharial, are you sure that the hilt is not from Sulawesi?

Kai, it might or might not be,... better picture would help... I'm not certain, given pictures from several awkward position, are u?

Kind Regards,
Shahrial

David · 26th July 2007, 01:02 PM

I would have leaned towards Sulawesi in describing this hilt as well...but then nailing down the origins of various Bugis forms is certainly not my strong suit. Rather than say it may be this or that it would certainly be helpful to those of us who struggle with these identifications to qualify one's opinion with some reasoning (i.e. the way the hilt curves here implies this or the way it is carved there implies that). Of course, better pictures will no doubt help these qualified assessments.
The qualities that determine Bugis sheath origin are much more vague for me than the for hilts. I know Shahrial and Kai Wee have touched on this subject before, but for the most part i still find myself guessing.

Willem, better picture sure would help. I get the feeling that your camera's color balance might be off a bit, since i wouldn't have thought the pendokok was gold at first. Check to see that you are set for the right white balance. If you camera only has auto white balance try shooting on a day when there is brighter light. If you are having problems holding the camera steady try using a tripod. You probably shouldn't try to hand-hold exposures slower that 1/60 of a second. Also know the limitations of your camera. It looks as though you may have taken some pictures that are closer that the camera is able to focus. If so it would be better to back off a bit and then enlarge the photo somewhat in post production by cropping.

kai · 27th July 2007, 08:37 AM

Hello Sharial,

Quote:

Kai, it might or might not be,... better picture would help... I'm not certain, given pictures from several awkward position, are u?

Nah, I bow to your experience. From pic #2 and #5 I'd have guessed at a Sulawesi origin (short base of the hilt, nearly perpendicular "bow," very stylized head). I'm far from positive though - just curious which hints are suggesting a possible Sumatran origin.

Regards,
Kai

Marcokeris · 27th July 2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Great looking pamor; one I haven't seen before .

Really?

Rick · 27th July 2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Really?

Yup .

Got any examples to show ??

David · 27th July 2007, 04:36 PM

Hey Rick, i found some nice pics of another example here:
http://tengkurizan.fotopic.net/c1071527.html
Marco, take a closer look at this pamor. It might be a bit more than you originally thought it was.

25th July 2007, 08:51 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I completely agree with David The ukiran is probably sea ivory. About the fitting of it see the comment of David. The loop is often seen on Bugis or Sumatran keris. AFAIK it is only seen on Sumatra. The function of it is for me unknown. I guess it is ceremonial and the cord was mostly covered with gold (suasa) or silver and dressed up with stones. But there where also more simple loops like yours. The functional use for it what I can think of is attaching the keris to the belt. Age of a keris is very hard to tell. With this blade I wouldn't try to guess.

25th July 2007, 09:51 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Are the mounts tarnished silver or gilded silver (which it looks likely). I agree with needing better pictures for the ivory - some did trade in hippo ivory in the region.

26th July 2007, 02:10 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Great looking pamor; one I haven't seen before .

26th July 2007, 08:34 AM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Lot of questions and answers. thanks in advance. - The wrapping of the sheath is intact, I will try to make some pictures in focus. - The hilt and pendokok/selut are completely tight on the blade, no movement at all. considering the material of the hilt I am somewhat reluctant to try and get it loose. any suggestions ? - the selut looks like solid gold, and the the mountings on the scabbard maybe gold on silver. I will go and see a goldsmith to be sure on that. - as for the composite suggestion. it might be, but than before 1940. and certainly not with the poorest of materials.

26th July 2007, 01:02 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I would have leaned towards Sulawesi in describing this hilt as well...but then nailing down the origins of various Bugis forms is certainly not my strong suit. Rather than say it may be this or that it would certainly be helpful to those of us who struggle with these identifications to qualify one's opinion with some reasoning (i.e. the way the hilt curves here implies this or the way it is carved there implies that). Of course, better pictures will no doubt help these qualified assessments. The qualities that determine Bugis sheath origin are much more vague for me than the for hilts. I know Shahrial and Kai Wee have touched on this subject before, but for the most part i still find myself guessing. Willem, better picture sure would help. I get the feeling that your camera's color balance might be off a bit, since i wouldn't have thought the pendokok was gold at first. Check to see that you are set for the right white balance. If you camera only has auto white balance try shooting on a day when there is brighter light. If you are having problems holding the camera steady try using a tripod. You probably shouldn't try to hand-hold exposures slower that 1/60 of a second. Also know the limitations of your camera. It looks as though you may have taken some pictures that are closer that the camera is able to focus. If so it would be better to back off a bit and then enlarge the photo somewhat in post production by cropping.

27th July 2007, 04:36 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Hey Rick, i found some nice pics of another example here: http://tengkurizan.fotopic.net/c1071527.html Marco, take a closer look at this pamor. It might be a bit more than you originally thought it was.