keris and spirit

ganjawulung · 25th July 2007, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

I have a keris with "pamengkang jagad = the world stretcher [?]". Or if it is not a keris with the world stretcher, it is a keris with "rondo beser". David and Gonjo, please translate to foruminities a word "rondo beser". Personally, I prefer a word "rondo beser" because its dapur/shape is sombro (Sombro is a name of female empu/kerissmith).

Dear Raden Usman,
I will try to find the exact meaning of "rondo beser". (For this time being, I'm still travelling between Yogya-Solo-Yogya to and fro. And I've met Marco -- our keris Italian friend -- in Yogyakarta. We stay in the same hotel in Tirtodipuran Yogyakarta but of course not the same room.)

If I'm not mistaken, "rondo beser" is a bigger crack than "pamengkang jagat". And the literaly meaning of "rondo beser" is, "rondo" means "widow" and "beser" means "so often go to toilet". So, what is in a name? You may feel it.

In my opinion, "rondo beser" has a little bit negative conotation. But "pamengkang jagat" has more positive meaning. So it depends on the person, from what side or perspective he see the phenomenon (the crack in the blade).

This for the time being, my answer to you, Raden. After I come to Jakarta, I will search the more exact meaning of it. Anyway, I met your old friends in Yogyakarta, Raden. Your friend from Pametri Wiji Yogyakarta (the Yogyakarta Keris Association), are mentioning your name.

Ganjawulung

David · 25th July 2007, 02:01 PM

Thank you Usmen. I think i am able to grasp the meaning of "sipat piandel" through your usage of the term. You pose a very interesting question, i believe, and my answer to it is that very simply we don't need any particular medium, be it keris, holy books or whatever, to connect ourselves to the "Singularity".
The direct line is always there and can always be accessed. But personally i sometimes like to travel along a more winding path to see what the "Singularity" may have manisfest there. There may also be other lessons to be learned on that less direct path and one can find a different beauty manifested there (such as in the form of the keris) that one would miss otherwise. I believe the key here is not to fall prey to the idea that one cannot do without the trappings of one's Art in order to accomplish the "Great Work" that lies before us. When we do such things become merely a crutch that in the end has an opposite effect of weighing us down in our materialism when we really want to "fly". But if we understand the true nature of our tools and always keep in mind that ultimately they are unnecessary they can infact make the journey more "colorful".

Mans · 27th July 2007, 05:58 PM

Dear all,
Especially to Moderator.

Peace...
I don't know, do I will breaking the rule if I post the comment from friend who got trouble with her account at this forum. But he asked me to post her comment in here.

Here her comment :

Dear all,

I didn’t expect my comment will be the cause for me being suspended as this is an adult forum. So do expect the unexpected. I heard this comment made in 1994 and now the impact still register in my mind. Anyway, I hope it will create a powerful impact on us of the danger in assuming things.

I will cease penning my writes from now on to bow low and step back. My being suspended is a sign from Almighty Allah to stop sharing my thoughts and findings. I will share an email (Keris & Spirits) quoted from someone whom I hold very high respect and look upon for his many years of wisdom.

He quoted: “Many people claim to be "experts", or get promoted as "experts" by their own little group. Very, very few people are truly expert in the area we are discussing, and those who truly are, are not easy to find.”

One last request from me to keris experts: to provide correct info and not mislead others. If you’re reluctant then just “shut your mouth” and keep mum. As for the others be initiative; do research and compare findings. Apologized if I happen to step on anybody’s toes for I’m a very forthright person with no hidden façade or agenda.

Sincerely,

Hana
P.S – Nice knowing you guys at Warung Kopi. Do take care!!

Rick · 28th July 2007, 01:01 AM

This forum is a part of the Vikingsword site; that means the guidelines and rules listed in the Main forum must also be followed .
I did not enjoy doing what I did but for consistency's sake I was compelled to .
Hana is welcome back after her suspension ends .

From the overall rules of behavior for *all* fora here:

" You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy."

Let's move on ...

Rick

David · 28th July 2007, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

He quoted: “Many people claim to be "experts", or get promoted as "experts" by their own little group. Very, very few people are truly expert in the area we are discussing, and those who truly are, are not easy to find.”

I agree with Rick that we should move on. If any member feels the need to continue this conversation i would be more than happy to discuss the matter further with them in PM. Hana's inquisitiveness and kindness will be missed, but in should be made clear that she is certainly welcome back after her suspension has past.

I would like to comment on the above passage from Hana's letter though. Truer words have rarely been stated in regards to the keris world. The arena is rife with pretenders. I will say, however, that i can think of no one here who has promoted themselves as an "expert" in this field and always feel a bit uncomfortable when someone addresses an inquirery "dear keris experts". The only person on this forum who i believe even remotely meets the profile of a "keris expert" would certainly never call himself one and is well aware of the limitations of his expertise to very specific areas of keris study. So i do ask you all that we procede with this attitude in mind; that we are all merely students of the keris, that there is so much more for any of us to know, that we will probably spend the rest of our lives in the persuit of this elusive knowledge, and that previously unknown answers can sometimes be provided by even the most neophyte amongst us, as inspiration is a gift from the creatrix that often lands in the laps of the most inexperienced of pupils.

Alam Shah · 28th July 2007, 06:24 AM

Dear Hana,

Quote:

Originally Posted by hana

He quoted: “Many people claim to be "experts", or get promoted as "experts" by their own little group. Very, very few people are truly expert in the area we are discussing, and those who truly are, are not easy to find.”

What you said is true, but bear in mind... most of us here are not experts, nor claim to be one (me included). This is a place to share... when we have an opinion, we state it such. If we have our opinion... presented as facts, then others will want that fact to be supported or where the info originated. This would help us explore further... etc.

To err is human, we do make mistakes and at times, got corrected. We learn from our mistake and the mistakes of others, then we move on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by hana

One last request from me to keris experts: to provide correct info and not mislead others. If you’re reluctant then just “shut your mouth” and keep mum. As for the others be initiative; do research and compare findings. Apologized if I happen to step on anybody’s toes for I’m a very forthright person with no hidden façade or agenda.

Hana, you mentioned that you are forthright, but up to now, I still could not figure out whom you are refering to as the keris experts,

(you can email me).

I believe the others can stand their own ground... for years they've done so. I wish you the very best of luck in your quest for... hmmm... whatever that you're looking for. Cheers.

27th July 2007, 05:58 PM	#3
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	comment from friend Dear all, Especially to Moderator. Peace... I don't know, do I will breaking the rule if I post the comment from friend who got trouble with her account at this forum. But he asked me to post her comment in here. Here her comment : Dear all, I didn’t expect my comment will be the cause for me being suspended as this is an adult forum. So do expect the unexpected. I heard this comment made in 1994 and now the impact still register in my mind. Anyway, I hope it will create a powerful impact on us of the danger in assuming things. I will cease penning my writes from now on to bow low and step back. My being suspended is a sign from Almighty Allah to stop sharing my thoughts and findings. I will share an email (Keris & Spirits) quoted from someone whom I hold very high respect and look upon for his many years of wisdom. He quoted: “Many people claim to be "experts", or get promoted as "experts" by their own little group. Very, very few people are truly expert in the area we are discussing, and those who truly are, are not easy to find.” One last request from me to keris experts: to provide correct info and not mislead others. If you’re reluctant then just “shut your mouth” and keep mum. As for the others be initiative; do research and compare findings. Apologized if I happen to step on anybody’s toes for I’m a very forthright person with no hidden façade or agenda. Sincerely, Hana P.S – Nice knowing you guys at Warung Kopi. Do take care!!

28th July 2007, 01:01 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	It Is Unfortunate This forum is a part of the Vikingsword site; that means the guidelines and rules listed in the Main forum must also be followed . I did not enjoy doing what I did but for consistency's sake I was compelled to . Hana is welcome back after her suspension ends . From the overall rules of behavior for all fora here: " You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy." Let's move on ... Rick

25th July 2007, 02:01 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thank you Usmen. I think i am able to grasp the meaning of "sipat piandel" through your usage of the term. You pose a very interesting question, i believe, and my answer to it is that very simply we don't need any particular medium, be it keris, holy books or whatever, to connect ourselves to the "Singularity". The direct line is always there and can always be accessed. But personally i sometimes like to travel along a more winding path to see what the "Singularity" may have manisfest there. There may also be other lessons to be learned on that less direct path and one can find a different beauty manifested there (such as in the form of the keris) that one would miss otherwise. I believe the key here is not to fall prey to the idea that one cannot do without the trappings of one's Art in order to accomplish the "Great Work" that lies before us. When we do such things become merely a crutch that in the end has an opposite effect of weighing us down in our materialism when we really want to "fly". But if we understand the true nature of our tools and always keep in mind that ultimately they are unnecessary they can infact make the journey more "colorful".