A bit unusual keris

rasdan · 8th March 2005, 02:05 AM

Hi Andrew,

The Bugis use chainmails. Theres one or two specimen of theese mails in museums in KL. I think they got the idea from their neighbouring Moros.

rahman · 8th March 2005, 03:18 AM

So, Pak Rasdan

Do you think it was used against the Bugis (17-19th century) or against the Portuguese and Dutch (15th century)?

Er, sorry but I can't tell if this is a Malay oir Bugis keris? Maklumlah just beginning

John · 8th March 2005, 05:53 AM

I like the beauty of simplicity of this thick graceful Bugis sepokal blade well complemented by it's matching pendokok. Good find and syabas.

rasdan · 8th March 2005, 07:15 AM

Hi guys,

From my point of view this keris is in straits bugis style (slightly curved and convex cross section) and I think it's used by the straits bugis during the war with Siak in 1700's. However i havent done any research regarding this to support my opinion.

Thanks John, nevertheless i still highly admiring your rhino horn bugis. Its simply stunning.

BluErf · 8th March 2005, 03:04 PM

Sulawesi!!

Bill · 8th March 2005, 04:35 PM

Nice keris, its beauty lies in its simplicity. Wonder how old the scabbard is. More likely the Bugis developed armor before the Moro because of thier manner of combat with blow guns. This may be handy in dispatching a wounded armored warrior. "The Narrative of Captain David Woodard" is an interesting account of a group of sailors, lost at sea, & thier 2.5 years as prisoners of varying Sulawesi groups in the late 18thC. Woodard gives a first hand account of a battle between 2 villages. Also describes ceremonies where bird shaped hilts made of horn were given for acts of bravery on the battlefield for thier daggers & creese (described as 24" blades). Wonder if the origins of the horn Bugis hilts was reserved for warriors that had been deemed worthy.

Conogre · 8th March 2005, 04:56 PM

From what I've been able to ascertain, chainmail was indeed used throughout the region, often with tortoise shell, brass, bone or even fish scale plates incorporated into it, plus many tribes in the area also wore "war jackets" of very heavy woven plant fibre manufacture.
Many were extremely decorative as well as functional and would have been effective against small blades, darts and even arrows, so a thicker, very pointed thrusting blade would have been perfect against these as well.
I think the effectiveness of even many slashing type short swords would have been greatly reduced as well....try a slashing stroke against one of the thick, woven door mats seen everywhere in the northern US and it will give you a fair comparison.
Then try a thrust with a very thin, pointed blade and I think you'll find it slides through almost without noticable impedence.
Mike

Andrew · 11th March 2005, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Hi Andrew,

The Bugis use chainmails. Theres one or two specimen of theese mails in museums in KL. I think they got the idea from their neighbouring Moros.

Hi Rasdan,

I missed this entirely until just now.

Thanks for the explanation. Interesting stuff. I've been a proponant of mail-piercing tips on pesh kabz and various Indo-Persian forms, but have not given much thought to the SEA weapons in this role.

Magabani, don't you have a full set of Moro mail?

rasdan · 11th March 2005, 06:55 AM

Hi Andrew,

Heres some armour used by Malays. The first is made of tin and the second made of crocodile skin.

rahman · 11th March 2005, 06:59 AM

wow!

Pak Rasdan -- are these photos from Muzium Negara KL? I don't recall ever seeing them.

With armor like these, the Malays don't have to worry about being kebal

Are these bullet-proof? I don't mean from an M-16 but rather from a 19th century musket.

rasdan · 11th March 2005, 07:05 AM

They are from Selangor Muzium in Shah Alam, Rahman. Bullet proof? Nah.. i dont think so. Actually i wanted to take some pictures of a kemuning tree behind the Muzium, but to my suprise it was "trimmed" and not much is left to see. But it'll survive i think.

Rick · 11th March 2005, 01:51 PM

These both look like examples of Nias war jackets .
Any provenance with the display ?

rasdan · 12th March 2005, 12:42 AM

Hi Rick,

I'm not sure. Theres no caption on these items. Sorry. If u hav samples of Nias war jackets, can u kindly show us?

Regards

11th March 2005, 06:55 AM	#9
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi Andrew, Heres some armour used by Malays. The first is made of tin and the second made of crocodile skin. Attached Images

8th March 2005, 02:05 AM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi Andrew, The Bugis use chainmails. Theres one or two specimen of theese mails in museums in KL. I think they got the idea from their neighbouring Moros.

8th March 2005, 03:18 AM	#2
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	So, Pak Rasdan Do you think it was used against the Bugis (17-19th century) or against the Portuguese and Dutch (15th century)? Er, sorry but I can't tell if this is a Malay oir Bugis keris? Maklumlah just beginning

8th March 2005, 05:53 AM	#3
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	I like the beauty of simplicity of this thick graceful Bugis sepokal blade well complemented by it's matching pendokok. Good find and syabas.

8th March 2005, 07:15 AM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi guys, From my point of view this keris is in straits bugis style (slightly curved and convex cross section) and I think it's used by the straits bugis during the war with Siak in 1700's. However i havent done any research regarding this to support my opinion. Thanks John, nevertheless i still highly admiring your rhino horn bugis. Its simply stunning.

8th March 2005, 03:04 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Sulawesi!!

8th March 2005, 04:35 PM	#6
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Nice keris, its beauty lies in its simplicity. Wonder how old the scabbard is. More likely the Bugis developed armor before the Moro because of thier manner of combat with blow guns. This may be handy in dispatching a wounded armored warrior. "The Narrative of Captain David Woodard" is an interesting account of a group of sailors, lost at sea, & thier 2.5 years as prisoners of varying Sulawesi groups in the late 18thC. Woodard gives a first hand account of a battle between 2 villages. Also describes ceremonies where bird shaped hilts made of horn were given for acts of bravery on the battlefield for thier daggers & creese (described as 24" blades). Wonder if the origins of the horn Bugis hilts was reserved for warriors that had been deemed worthy.

8th March 2005, 04:56 PM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	From what I've been able to ascertain, chainmail was indeed used throughout the region, often with tortoise shell, brass, bone or even fish scale plates incorporated into it, plus many tribes in the area also wore "war jackets" of very heavy woven plant fibre manufacture. Many were extremely decorative as well as functional and would have been effective against small blades, darts and even arrows, so a thicker, very pointed thrusting blade would have been perfect against these as well. I think the effectiveness of even many slashing type short swords would have been greatly reduced as well....try a slashing stroke against one of the thick, woven door mats seen everywhere in the northern US and it will give you a fair comparison. Then try a thrust with a very thin, pointed blade and I think you'll find it slides through almost without noticable impedence. Mike

11th March 2005, 06:59 AM	#10
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	wow! Pak Rasdan -- are these photos from Muzium Negara KL? I don't recall ever seeing them. With armor like these, the Malays don't have to worry about being kebal Are these bullet-proof? I don't mean from an M-16 but rather from a 19th century musket.

11th March 2005, 07:05 AM	#11
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	They are from Selangor Muzium in Shah Alam, Rahman. Bullet proof? Nah.. i dont think so. Actually i wanted to take some pictures of a kemuning tree behind the Muzium, but to my suprise it was "trimmed" and not much is left to see. But it'll survive i think.

11th March 2005, 01:51 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	These both look like examples of Nias war jackets . Any provenance with the display ?

12th March 2005, 12:42 AM	#13
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi Rick, I'm not sure. Theres no caption on these items. Sorry. If u hav samples of Nias war jackets, can u kindly show us? Regards