Dha-Lwe average measurements please

PUFF · 22nd July 2007, 05:35 PM

May I have a couple comments?

Firstly, its tang 's totally wrong (unless it 's designed for practice) The traditional tang should be thick,triangle and not so long tang. It should also be upward to match with blade 's curvature.

Second, Blade's thickness 's quite fatal for its balance. Most of well balance blades of this type are thicker at their base and taper to almost nothing at the point. You can also find proper spine width in Mark's measurement.

Just my 2c

Antonio Cejunior · 23rd July 2007, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

May I have a couple comments?

Firstly, its tang 's totally wrong (unless it 's designed for practice) The traditional tang should be thick,triangle and not so long tang. It should also be upward to match with blade 's curvature.

Thanks for your comments PUFF

I am not making a total replica, but a dha-lwe based sword.
Indeed I should have curved more the tang. But I'm sure with the instructions it will obviously get there.

Quote:

Second, Blade's thickness 's quite fatal for its balance. Most of well balance blades of this type are thicker at their base and taper to almost nothing at the point. You can also find proper spine width in Mark's measurement.

Just my 2c

I see... darn, how could I have not seen the weight problem and had such a long tang? Thanks

Mark · 23rd July 2007, 03:35 PM

Dear Antonio,

That is a great design!

I can't wait to see how you treat the fittings.

I echo PUFF's comments about the tang, but I see why you want to make it a full tang. I do suggest making it clear to the maker that the tang needs to continue the curve of the blade, at least somewhat (usually the curve of the sword is not uniform, but increasing a bit toward the tip, so it does not need to be an arch of a circle). It might be possible to taper it a little both in width and span without weakening the handle, too. Though it is traditional, I don't recommend the small triangular tang unless you really want to copy an old blade. Though it has a function (it makes the handle vibrate less, makes it easier to tighten the blade in the handle when it loosens with use, and makes it easier to change the handle), it makes a pretty unstable grip overall if you are not using the sword in the traditional way(s). I think the proportion of the tang to the blade is good (assuming a full tang).

I think that some of the balance problem of the blade can be remediated by using a "double taper," with the taper more dramatic near the base of the blade. As you will note from the measurements of the antiques, the spine at the base is very wide (generally a half cm, or a bit more), and it tapers quickly to about half that over the first quarter or third of the blade, with a more gradual and uniform taper after that. It makes for a graceful sweep when viewed from above, and adds greatly, in my opinion, to the grace and beauty of the sword. I suggest 6/3.5/3/2.5 rather than your 6/6/5/3.5 (I am assuming those are the measurements at the start of each section), with the final taper going at the tip to essentially the width of the blade edge as you have it in your design.

To further help balance, I think that you may have to counter the weight of the tang with a heavier ferrule section next to the blade. It would add to the overall weight of the piece, but I think the balance and feel of the blade would be close overall to that of a dha/daab. The point of balance should only be around 7-8 cm,a t most, from the base of the blade (they are very light at the tip). Oh, and the square tip itself has an edge, the spine width at the tip being essentially that of the bottom edge, making for only a very, very slight taper from the spine to the bottom edge at the very tip, rather than a typical triangular cross-section. It looks like from the design that you have incorporated this feature, but I thought I would point it out, has I didn't mention it before.

Finally, I don't know how closely you want to match the side-view profile of the blade, but if you look closely at the profiles of mine, and at the blade width/span (edge-to-spine) measurements, you will note that there is a slight "waist" or narrowing of the blade at the beginning, the narrowest point being near the point of balance (I think this would also help balance, by the way), than the gentle flare toward the tip. This is characterist of Tai blades (Tai, Lao, Shan, etc.), and it adds a further touch of feminine beauty and grace.

Mark

PS: regarding fittings, the wide bell-shaped ferrule at the base is often polygonal in cross-section (I forget the number, but I can check), though sometimes it is circular.

PPS: I have been tabulating these various measurements to see if I can detect a pattern, but I have let most of my research idle this last year, unfortunately, so it is not yet complete.

Antonio Cejunior · 24th July 2007, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Dear Antonio,

That is a great design!

I can't wait to see how you treat the fittings.

Thanks my dear Mark, but it's really just a variation. I will be planning to do a hybrid design respecting all the fundamentals though.

Quote:

I echo PUFF's comments about the tang, but I see why you want to make it a full tang. I do suggest making it clear to the maker that the tang needs to continue the curve of the blade, at least somewhat (usually the curve of the sword is not uniform, but increasing a bit toward the tip, so it does not need to be an arch of a circle). It might be possible to taper it a little both in width and span without weakening the handle, too. Though it is traditional, I don't recommend the small triangular tang unless you really want to copy an old blade. Though it has a function (it makes the handle vibrate less, makes it easier to tighten the blade in the handle when it loosens with use, and makes it easier to change the handle), it makes a pretty unstable grip overall if you are not using the sword in the traditional way(s). I think the proportion of the tang to the blade is good (assuming a full tang).

This one blade is destined for cutting hard targets so I place security first, hence the construction having two pin holes and a long tang.
I did increase the tip curve upwards in the spine, but I want a harmonious curve in the edge side. When you see an outline design like this it may fail to show, but using Illustrator CS2 I usually draw an elipse for the blade curve and then define the curve approximately how I want it.
Then I drag a guideline and cut the curve at the tang and move the cut area down so, although it doesn't look like, it is curved, not so much visually but it is curved. I guess anyway I will draw it again.
For a contemporary inspired blade I would prefer to have a strong blade.

Quote:

I think that some of the balance problem of the blade can be remediated by using a "double taper," with the taper more dramatic near the base of the blade. As you will note from the measurements of the antiques, the spine at the base is very wide (generally a half cm, or a bit more), and it tapers quickly to about half that over the first quarter or third of the blade, with a more gradual and uniform taper after that. It makes for a graceful sweep when viewed from above, and adds greatly, in my opinion, to the grace and beauty of the sword. I suggest 6/3.5/3/2.5 rather than your 6/6/5/3.5 (I am assuming those are the measurements at the start of each section), with the final taper going at the tip to essentially the width of the blade edge as you have it in your design.

To further help balance, I think that you may have to counter the weight of the tang with a heavier ferrule section next to the blade. It would add to the overall weight of the piece, but I think the balance and feel of the blade would be close overall to that of a dha/daab. The point of balance should only be around 7-8 cm,a t most, from the base of the blade (they are very light at the tip). Oh, and the square tip itself has an edge, the spine width at the tip being essentially that of the bottom edge, making for only a very, very slight taper from the spine to the bottom edge at the very tip, rather than a typical triangular cross-section. It looks like from the design that you have incorporated this feature, but I thought I would point it out, has I didn't mention it before.

Finally, I don't know how closely you want to match the side-view profile of the blade, but if you look closely at the profiles of mine, and at the blade width/span (edge-to-spine) measurements, you will note that there is a slight "waist" or narrowing of the blade at the beginning, the narrowest point being near the point of balance (I think this would also help balance, by the way), than the gentle flare toward the tip. This is characterist of Tai blades (Tai, Lao, Shan, etc.), and it adds a further touch of feminine beauty and grace.

Mark

PS: regarding fittings, the wide bell-shaped ferrule at the base is often polygonal in cross-section (I forget the number, but I can check), though sometimes it is circular.

PPS: I have been tabulating these various measurements to see if I can detect a pattern, but I have let most of my research idle this last year, unfortunately, so it is not yet complete.

Thanks Bro, I guess I will be designing it again, just to be sure its quite clear.

Grazzie tanti

Antonio Cejunior · 24th July 2007, 05:06 PM

Mark,
As promised here are some print screens of the Illustrator works.

This is the first step, two parallel curves with red guidelines. See the red vertical line where the tang begins? See how the tang is curved?

Now here is a close up of how I cut the lines at the tang guidelines and moved the tang lines closer.

Now from the parallel lines at the tip of the blade I first move up from A to B the blade width at the tip. Then I will twist is to get the proper overall shape.

In the overall shape little details of the blade's profile have been added. Now the tang doesn't look as curved as the original first drawing, but nothing has changed.

Hope I have cleared this

Thank you and everyone else.
BTW, I'm on a laptop and don't have your present email. Care to send one just to add it to the address book? Thanks

Mark · 25th July 2007, 03:52 PM

Ah, yes, I can see the curve now. I think the size of the first picture made it hard to see the curve of the tang in relation to the rest of the blade. It is funny that such a subtle feature can affect the look of the blade when its mounted up - it only has to be very slight. You immediately spot something odd about it if it is perfectly straight. I think this one will mount up nicely.

Antonio Cejunior · 25th July 2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Ah, yes, I can see the curve now. I think the size of the first picture made it hard to see the curve of the tang in relation to the rest of the blade.

Tru, the size can play games with our vision. But actually the first drawing whas exactly done the same way

Quote:

It is funny that such a subtle feature can affect the look of the blade when its mounted up - it only has to be very slight. You immediately spot something odd about it if it is perfectly straight. I think this one will mount up nicely.

Oh definitely. But when making the handle it is always a must to carve the tang channel and then define the curve with a flare. I hope to find some time to make the handle myself. I feel like I should do this one.

Buona notte

24th July 2007, 05:06 PM	#5
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	It's all here although it may not look like so Mark, As promised here are some print screens of the Illustrator works. This is the first step, two parallel curves with red guidelines. See the red vertical line where the tang begins? See how the tang is curved? Now here is a close up of how I cut the lines at the tang guidelines and moved the tang lines closer. Now from the parallel lines at the tip of the blade I first move up from A to B the blade width at the tip. Then I will twist is to get the proper overall shape. In the overall shape little details of the blade's profile have been added. Now the tang doesn't look as curved as the original first drawing, but nothing has changed. Hope I have cleared this Thank you and everyone else. BTW, I'm on a laptop and don't have your present email. Care to send one just to add it to the address book? Thanks

22nd July 2007, 05:35 PM	#1
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	May I have a couple comments? Firstly, its tang 's totally wrong (unless it 's designed for practice) The traditional tang should be thick,triangle and not so long tang. It should also be upward to match with blade 's curvature. Second, Blade's thickness 's quite fatal for its balance. Most of well balance blades of this type are thicker at their base and taper to almost nothing at the point. You can also find proper spine width in Mark's measurement. Just my 2c

23rd July 2007, 03:35 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Dear Antonio, That is a great design! I can't wait to see how you treat the fittings. I echo PUFF's comments about the tang, but I see why you want to make it a full tang. I do suggest making it clear to the maker that the tang needs to continue the curve of the blade, at least somewhat (usually the curve of the sword is not uniform, but increasing a bit toward the tip, so it does not need to be an arch of a circle). It might be possible to taper it a little both in width and span without weakening the handle, too. Though it is traditional, I don't recommend the small triangular tang unless you really want to copy an old blade. Though it has a function (it makes the handle vibrate less, makes it easier to tighten the blade in the handle when it loosens with use, and makes it easier to change the handle), it makes a pretty unstable grip overall if you are not using the sword in the traditional way(s). I think the proportion of the tang to the blade is good (assuming a full tang). I think that some of the balance problem of the blade can be remediated by using a "double taper," with the taper more dramatic near the base of the blade. As you will note from the measurements of the antiques, the spine at the base is very wide (generally a half cm, or a bit more), and it tapers quickly to about half that over the first quarter or third of the blade, with a more gradual and uniform taper after that. It makes for a graceful sweep when viewed from above, and adds greatly, in my opinion, to the grace and beauty of the sword. I suggest 6/3.5/3/2.5 rather than your 6/6/5/3.5 (I am assuming those are the measurements at the start of each section), with the final taper going at the tip to essentially the width of the blade edge as you have it in your design. To further help balance, I think that you may have to counter the weight of the tang with a heavier ferrule section next to the blade. It would add to the overall weight of the piece, but I think the balance and feel of the blade would be close overall to that of a dha/daab. The point of balance should only be around 7-8 cm,a t most, from the base of the blade (they are very light at the tip). Oh, and the square tip itself has an edge, the spine width at the tip being essentially that of the bottom edge, making for only a very, very slight taper from the spine to the bottom edge at the very tip, rather than a typical triangular cross-section. It looks like from the design that you have incorporated this feature, but I thought I would point it out, has I didn't mention it before. Finally, I don't know how closely you want to match the side-view profile of the blade, but if you look closely at the profiles of mine, and at the blade width/span (edge-to-spine) measurements, you will note that there is a slight "waist" or narrowing of the blade at the beginning, the narrowest point being near the point of balance (I think this would also help balance, by the way), than the gentle flare toward the tip. This is characterist of Tai blades (Tai, Lao, Shan, etc.), and it adds a further touch of feminine beauty and grace. Mark PS: regarding fittings, the wide bell-shaped ferrule at the base is often polygonal in cross-section (I forget the number, but I can check), though sometimes it is circular. PPS: I have been tabulating these various measurements to see if I can detect a pattern, but I have let most of my research idle this last year, unfortunately, so it is not yet complete.

25th July 2007, 03:52 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Ah, yes, I can see the curve now. I think the size of the first picture made it hard to see the curve of the tang in relation to the rest of the blade. It is funny that such a subtle feature can affect the look of the blade when its mounted up - it only has to be very slight. You immediately spot something odd about it if it is perfectly straight. I think this one will mount up nicely.