Turkish / Indian ?? Kilij Sword

Oriental-Arms · 7th July 2007, 06:46 PM

Two Comments:

Date: We all use to think that this type of weapons appeared in the 18 C. But isn't it possible that we were mistaken?? We have here quite a good example of a blade dated earlier than we think. Ham is correct that swords were used to carry early dates for commemoration of a certain event, be it a famous battle or important conquest, but in all such cases that I have seen, it was referred to the event. Here there is no such reference only a quote of a very common saying in the world of the Islam. Why not simply accept that may be these blades are earlier than we thought??

Provenance: The sword was acquired in the UK but I agree the label was not written by a British. We can only confirm the provenance by tracing the original Christies auction catalog.

Tim Simmons · 7th July 2007, 07:58 PM

It is a very beautiful sword.

ariel · 7th July 2007, 08:28 PM

No doubt, the sword is beautiful!
What is the motive on the handle ? Parasols? Mughal motive.
Another puzzle: the invocation of Ali and Dhulfaghar is Shia; the Ottomans were Sunnis, AFAIK. I guess the inscription might be contemporary to the handle.

Emanuel · 7th July 2007, 09:13 PM

I thought that invocations to Ali and Ali's sword were used by both Shi'a and Sunna. Don't Ottoman yataghans often have such invocations?

ham · 7th July 2007, 10:45 PM

Manolo,

It is correct that this phrase glorifying 'Ali and Dhul-fakar was used among both Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims.

Oriental-Arms,

Your observation,

"that swords were used to carry early dates for commemoration of a certain event, be it a famous battle or important conquest, but in all such cases that I have seen, it was referred to the event."

intrigues me-- if I understand you correctly, you have seen Islamic blades which bear inscriptions that reference a specific historical occurrence? I regret that in all my years I have not, excepting weapons made after a European model, since this tends to be a Western practice. If there are any examples you could cite it would be most helpful.

Ham

Oriental-Arms · 8th July 2007, 07:27 AM

Yes indeed Ham. At least twice that I remember. One on a handle of a Persian Khanjar glorying an old battle and another on a blade, I believe it was Turkish. I will have to go through my archive of photos to find it ( some 20000 photos to search). Give me some time.

ham · 8th July 2007, 07:24 PM

Excellent, I look forward to seeing them!

Ham

7th July 2007, 06:46 PM	#1
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Two Comments: Date: We all use to think that this type of weapons appeared in the 18 C. But isn't it possible that we were mistaken?? We have here quite a good example of a blade dated earlier than we think. Ham is correct that swords were used to carry early dates for commemoration of a certain event, be it a famous battle or important conquest, but in all such cases that I have seen, it was referred to the event. Here there is no such reference only a quote of a very common saying in the world of the Islam. Why not simply accept that may be these blades are earlier than we thought?? Provenance: The sword was acquired in the UK but I agree the label was not written by a British. We can only confirm the provenance by tracing the original Christies auction catalog.

7th July 2007, 07:58 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	It is a very beautiful sword.

7th July 2007, 08:28 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No doubt, the sword is beautiful! What is the motive on the handle ? Parasols? Mughal motive. Another puzzle: the invocation of Ali and Dhulfaghar is Shia; the Ottomans were Sunnis, AFAIK. I guess the inscription might be contemporary to the handle.

7th July 2007, 09:13 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I thought that invocations to Ali and Ali's sword were used by both Shi'a and Sunna. Don't Ottoman yataghans often have such invocations?

7th July 2007, 10:45 PM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Manolo, It is correct that this phrase glorifying 'Ali and Dhul-fakar was used among both Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims. Oriental-Arms, Your observation, "that swords were used to carry early dates for commemoration of a certain event, be it a famous battle or important conquest, but in all such cases that I have seen, it was referred to the event." intrigues me-- if I understand you correctly, you have seen Islamic blades which bear inscriptions that reference a specific historical occurrence? I regret that in all my years I have not, excepting weapons made after a European model, since this tends to be a Western practice. If there are any examples you could cite it would be most helpful. Ham

8th July 2007, 07:27 AM	#6
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Yes indeed Ham. At least twice that I remember. One on a handle of a Persian Khanjar glorying an old battle and another on a blade, I believe it was Turkish. I will have to go through my archive of photos to find it ( some 20000 photos to search). Give me some time.

8th July 2007, 07:24 PM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Excellent, I look forward to seeing them! Ham