Why was this one so special ...

Ian · 5th July 2007, 05:55 AM

I'm struggling to understand why this knife sold for as much as it did. Am I missing something?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=270138626931

katana · 5th July 2007, 12:36 PM

Does not look to be anything 'special', the guard looks flimsy and weak....similar to the 'GI tourist' type swords from WW2.....but then...what do I know

ariel · 5th July 2007, 02:04 PM

Perhaps, it is just "old man's griping", but it seems to me that a lot of knowledgeable collectors who were using E-bay quietly vanished and there is a new and large group of people with a feedback of 2-5, too much money and absolutely no understanding or knowledge of antique or ethnic weapons.
Lurid fakes are bought left and right, junk goes for mucho dinero and legitimate collectors are regularly outbid by some unknowns by a 2-3 fold offer differential.

Jim McDougall · 5th July 2007, 02:20 PM

I'm with you Ian, and I can only imagine this was probably perceived as a 'sleeper' with the allusion to a Revolutionary War hilt. It seems like all manner of put together and contrived pieces end up in the 'catch all' of Filipino weapons brought back during military service from Spanish American War through WWII, as Katana has suggested.

While the spiral grooved grip and the animal head, with the prominant ferrule of the hilt suggest Revolutionary War period American hangers and sabres, the monkey head obviously deters that possibility. It does seem that a clever artisan created an interesting amalgam of features in this item.

The monkey head may somehow represent the monkey god of Hindu and Buddhist pantheons, but it seems strange how this image might apply to a sword/dagger fashioned in the style of early Spanish espada anchas with an American Revolution form hilt. Further, there must be some symbolism more aligned with Filipino tradition or folklore concerning the monkey head.

The agreed flimsy 'knuckleguard' hilt seems to correspond to vestigial representations of full guarded hilts often seen on Spanish colonial 'refabricated' items that are often found in the bring back category.

It is an interesting item, and clearly curiosity prevails as seen here

All the best,
Jim

Ian · 5th July 2007, 04:09 PM

Thanks to you all. I agree completely with all that you have said. Thought I must have been missing something "special" here.

I would place this as Filipino work, probably no earlier than WWII, and as you have each indicated it was probably overvalued by a factor of 2-3. The monkey head is seen on some northern Luzon knives and swords, notably from Igorot groups, but mainly on pieces made in the 20th C. and for consumption outside the original culture -- even to the point of adding monkey skulls to the scabbards.

As Ariel notes, it is unfortunate that some of the more knowledgable collectors seem to have abandoned eBay.

Ian.

Spunjer · 5th July 2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

As Ariel notes, it is unfortunate that some of the more knowledgable collectors seem to have abandoned eBay.

abandoned? i doubt it... outsniped? well, as ariel put it, " there is a new and large group of people with a feedback of 2-5, too much money and absolutely no understanding or knowledge of antique or ethnic weapons."
i don't think they're new tho; just changing names, IMHO

Rick · 5th July 2007, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

abandoned? i doubt it... outsniped? well, as ariel put it, " there is a new and large group of people with a feedback of 2-5, too much money and absolutely no understanding or knowledge of antique or ethnic weapons."
i don't think they're new tho; just changing names, IMHO

The E.W. collecting community does seem to have grown; and they have money to burn.

ariel · 5th July 2007, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

abandoned? i doubt it... outsniped? well, as ariel put it, " there is a new and large group of people with a feedback of 2-5, too much money and absolutely no understanding or knowledge of antique or ethnic weapons."
i don't think they're new tho; just changing names, IMHO

I think the ARE new: witness increased incidents of astonishing money paid for junk.
We all do it sometimes: either get fooled, too excited or getting a lousy piece because there is a ( what we think) important feature ( "... the blade is a replacement, but the handle seems to be the missing link..."-type).
But the new crop on e-bay just BUYS!

Spunjer · 12th July 2007, 05:56 AM

doubt if this buyer is a noob:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=320134542439

new collectors tend to ask a lot of questions before spending money on swords he or she is interested, either by private email or public forums, then they go on a shopping spree. as far as the buyer above, well, he sure does have money to burn, lol.

but then again, it depends on what's the definition of a noobie collector here...

kai · 12th July 2007, 09:27 AM

Certainly a niece piece. With broken blade, broken hilt, and broken scabbard, a fairly steep ticket though...

Rick · 12th July 2007, 03:24 PM

I'm probably dense but I can see no reason for a price like that.
Must have been a war of wallets.

Sad business IMO.

Looks like a barung ferrule on the handle.

David · 12th July 2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

doubt if this buyer is a noob:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=320134542439

new collectors tend to ask a lot of questions before spending money on swords he or she is interested, either by private email or public forums, then they go on a shopping spree. as far as the buyer above, well, he sure does have money to burn, lol.

but then again, it depends on what's the definition of a noobie collector here...

Perhaps not a "noobie", but certainly not intune with current market value. That is an incredible price for a kris in this condition. Perhaps if the ivory were intact...perhaps...

BTW, Ron, i hope i'm not blowing your cover, but who is that guy pictured in you icon?

Spunjer · 12th July 2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Looks like a barung ferrule on the handle.

lol, a frankenstein of a kris...

david,

nah, you're not blowing my cover, lol. that's my binangon pommel personified...

David · 12th July 2007, 10:20 PM

LOL!!!

So if you think the guy is not a "noob" why do you suppose he would pay so much money on a kris such as this?

Spunjer · 13th July 2007, 03:47 AM

i'm in agreement with what everyone is saying about how this kris was rediculously over priced. the buyer and the second highest bidder evidently wanted this kris badly, on what grounds, i have no clue, lol. maybe whoever he is, he can enlightened this forum?

i have to go back to my early assertion that these low feedback ebayers are just an alter-ego of some collectors. for some unknown reason, these new names that has been popping up on ebay seems to know what they want, to the point where 99 percent of these so called new collectors resorts to sniping, an advance tactic used by the more seasoned ebayer.

katana · 13th July 2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i have to go back to my early assertion that these low feedback ebayers are just an alter-ego of some collectors. for some unknown reason, these new names that has been popping up on ebay seems to know what they want, to the point where 99 percent of these so called new collectors resorts to sniping, an advance tactic used by the more seasoned ebayer.

Spunjer, I think you are 'bang on' with this suggestion....

Battara · 13th July 2007, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

99 percent of these so called new collectors resorts to sniping, an advance tactic used by the more seasoned ebayer.

More seasoned I don't know, but certainly with money to afford sniping programs.

Then again, maybe I'll get one too if I get the money...

Price is sad really - will have to wait long years to get the money back out of it.....

BTW - Spunger - I like the tenegre face better.

5th July 2007, 05:55 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,029	Why was this one so special ... I'm struggling to understand why this knife sold for as much as it did. Am I missing something? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=270138626931

5th July 2007, 04:09 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,029	Thanks guys ... Thanks to you all. I agree completely with all that you have said. Thought I must have been missing something "special" here. I would place this as Filipino work, probably no earlier than WWII, and as you have each indicated it was probably overvalued by a factor of 2-3. The monkey head is seen on some northern Luzon knives and swords, notably from Igorot groups, but mainly on pieces made in the 20th C. and for consumption outside the original culture -- even to the point of adding monkey skulls to the scabbards. As Ariel notes, it is unfortunate that some of the more knowledgable collectors seem to have abandoned eBay. Ian.

5th July 2007, 12:36 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Does not look to be anything 'special', the guard looks flimsy and weak....similar to the 'GI tourist' type swords from WW2.....but then...what do I know

5th July 2007, 02:04 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Perhaps, it is just "old man's griping", but it seems to me that a lot of knowledgeable collectors who were using E-bay quietly vanished and there is a new and large group of people with a feedback of 2-5, too much money and absolutely no understanding or knowledge of antique or ethnic weapons. Lurid fakes are bought left and right, junk goes for mucho dinero and legitimate collectors are regularly outbid by some unknowns by a 2-3 fold offer differential.

5th July 2007, 02:20 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	I'm with you Ian, and I can only imagine this was probably perceived as a 'sleeper' with the allusion to a Revolutionary War hilt. It seems like all manner of put together and contrived pieces end up in the 'catch all' of Filipino weapons brought back during military service from Spanish American War through WWII, as Katana has suggested. While the spiral grooved grip and the animal head, with the prominant ferrule of the hilt suggest Revolutionary War period American hangers and sabres, the monkey head obviously deters that possibility. It does seem that a clever artisan created an interesting amalgam of features in this item. The monkey head may somehow represent the monkey god of Hindu and Buddhist pantheons, but it seems strange how this image might apply to a sword/dagger fashioned in the style of early Spanish espada anchas with an American Revolution form hilt. Further, there must be some symbolism more aligned with Filipino tradition or folklore concerning the monkey head. The agreed flimsy 'knuckleguard' hilt seems to correspond to vestigial representations of full guarded hilts often seen on Spanish colonial 'refabricated' items that are often found in the bring back category. It is an interesting item, and clearly curiosity prevails as seen here All the best, Jim

12th July 2007, 05:56 AM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	doubt if this buyer is a noob: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=320134542439 new collectors tend to ask a lot of questions before spending money on swords he or she is interested, either by private email or public forums, then they go on a shopping spree. as far as the buyer above, well, he sure does have money to burn, lol. but then again, it depends on what's the definition of a noobie collector here...

12th July 2007, 09:27 AM	#10
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,218	Certainly a niece piece. With broken blade, broken hilt, and broken scabbard, a fairly steep ticket though...

12th July 2007, 03:24 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I'm probably dense but I can see no reason for a price like that. Must have been a war of wallets. Sad business IMO. Looks like a barung ferrule on the handle.

12th July 2007, 10:20 PM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	LOL!!! So if you think the guy is not a "noob" why do you suppose he would pay so much money on a kris such as this?

13th July 2007, 03:47 AM	#15
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i'm in agreement with what everyone is saying about how this kris was rediculously over priced. the buyer and the second highest bidder evidently wanted this kris badly, on what grounds, i have no clue, lol. maybe whoever he is, he can enlightened this forum? i have to go back to my early assertion that these low feedback ebayers are just an alter-ego of some collectors. for some unknown reason, these new names that has been popping up on ebay seems to know what they want, to the point where 99 percent of these so called new collectors resorts to sniping, an advance tactic used by the more seasoned ebayer.