A foundation for examining the quality of a keris blade

David · 3rd July 2007, 01:50 PM

This old thread might give you a good start and help us keep from needlessly going over old ground.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html
There is also a part two to this thread. This is from the old forum from the years 2000-2004. When searching for information i would like to encourage people to search the old forum as well as this one. We have been talking about keris for quite some time around here.

I dug up Pt. 2 as well:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html
Between them ther are many pages of dicussion (and argument) on this topic. I highly recommend that before anyone adds to this thread that they thoroughly read through these old pages to see where we have already been.

Alam Shah · 3rd July 2007, 02:09 PM

Actually, it had been added to the Classics sticky thread on the 1st page of when you enter Keris Warung Kopi. Just a gentle reminder.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd July 2007, 11:36 PM

As David and Alam Shah have pointed out, there has already been a lot of ground covered on this subject. I haven't read the posts about this subject for years, but my memory of it is that it went in interminable circles. I don't think there was ever a lot of good, solid down to earth useable info came out of all those thousands---maybe hundreds of thousands---of words.Don't misunderstand me, there was a heap of info in there, but I don't think that anybody, after reading it, could use what he had learnt to go out a buy himself a "good keris".

This is just about as I would expect, because appraisal of a keris is pretty much like appraisal of any other art work. The objective is to ascertain market value, but sometimes---as with any art work---market value moves in a direction that is not necessarily related to quantifiable quality.

Even if one ignores the question of value, and only concentrates on the physically quantifiable aspects of the work, to use an analytical approach where we specify the characteristics that should be found in the various features of a blade , is not really all that practical, because although we could come to a decision on the quality of the craftsmanship by using such an approach, we could not assess the art component because--- as with any art work--- that appraisal is subjective, and can only be effectively carried out by somebody with appropriate training and experience.

It is possible to appraise value to a limited degree by looking at components used in a complete keris, not just the blade. Gold is worth more than brass. Diamonds are worth more than rosecut rock crystal.However, no matter what materials are used, if the art factor is missing, the item is not worth as much as if the art factor were present.

Then there are the differences in standards between people with a keris interest in the western world, and people with an interest in keris in Jawa. Generally speaking, the western world collectors much prefer keris with high visual impact. Generally speaking, the collectors in Jawa much prefer keris with high prestige impact.The difference in the societies dictates what is favoured in those societies. What is desireable in Jawa, may not be particularly desireable in Sydney, or New York. And vice versa.

Even if we could come to agreement on some universal standard, I do not believe that even the most knowledgeable of us could pass our knowledge on to others by way of written words and internet photographs. In my opinion, what is needed is years and years and years of hands on experience. This cannot be replaced with photos and words.

What would perhaps be achieveable would be to specify standards of craftsmanship.This at least would be the beginning of an understanding of what goes to make a better than average keris.

Montino Bourbon · 4th July 2007, 10:43 AM

But what is 'prestige impact'? It sounds incredibly interesting, and, frankly, abstruse.

If it's not too much trouble, or does not repeat info written elsewhere, I would like you to define it.

ganjawulung · 4th July 2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then there are the differences in standards between people with a keris interest in the western world, and people with an interest in keris in Jawa. Generally speaking, the western world collectors much prefer keris with high visual impact. Generally speaking, the collectors in Jawa much prefer keris with high prestige impact.The difference in the societies dictates what is favoured in those societies. What is desireable in Jawa, may not be particularly desireable in Sydney, or New York. And vice versa.

Dear Alan,
It would be better if you specify, which Jawa do people much prefer keris with high prestige impact. In Surakarta, yes, you are exactly right. But not in Yogyakarta -- which lies only 64 km distance, but the people have a very different taste with Surakarta. Yogyakarta people much prefer the originality, and the simplicity. And event don't wnat to touch the "gebyar keris" of Solo or Surakarta style... You will feel that atmosphere in Yogyakarta.

Surakarta's taste, is more "gebyar" (glamour, glitter) but Yogyakarta's taste is very simple. Yogya is extremely different, though so close...

Ganjawulung

cahaya · 4th July 2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Alan,
....
Surakarta's taste, is more "gebyar" (glamour, glitter) but Yogyakarta's taste is very simple. Yogya is extremely different, though so close...

Ganjawulung

you right Gonjo....., i like yogyakarta style is very simple

A. G. Maisey · 4th July 2007, 02:06 PM

Prestige can come from many things, but it has one common characteristic:- it raises ones profile in the target community.

If one were to buy a Ferrari and use it to go to the supermarket, one has a prestige object and is using it gain prestige.

On the other hand, if one were to deny oneself of worldly possessions and comfort, and work tirelessly for the betterment of humanity, one is also placing oneself in a situation where one gains prestige.

The concept of "prestige" in a keris does not necessarily rest in a gold selut studded with diamonds. It can equally rest in a keris that is believed to possess extreme spiritual presence. It can even rest in the rumour of possession of a particular keris.

It is unnecessary to define "which Jawa". The social mores are universal, only their expression differs, and that difference is in superficialities.

ganjawulung · 5th July 2007, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then there are the differences in standards between people with a keris interest in the western world, and people with an interest in keris in Jawa. Generally speaking, the western world collectors much prefer keris with high visual impact. Generally speaking, the collectors in Jawa much prefer keris with high prestige impact.

It is still sound discriminative to me, and regarding that westerner is more perfect than the easterner, or even Javanese.... Soryy for this impression.

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 5th July 2007, 03:34 AM

I find that a very interesting comment, Pak Ganja.

Are you able to explain in which way you find my remarks to be of a discriminatory nature?

Exactly what have I written that could cause you to think I am making remarks that discriminate against Javanese people, and in favour of people from western cultures.

I am certain that your answer will be fascinating.

David · 5th July 2007, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

It is still sound discriminative to me, and regarding that westerner is more perfect than the easterner, or even Javanese.... Soryy for this impression.
Ganjawulung

Ganja, i am sorry that you get this impression from Alan's words, but i hardly think that was his intention. Rather than implying that the Westerner's view is more "prefect" it implies to me just the opposite, the tendency of the Westerner to be drawn to a keris merely for it's visual appearence rather than having a better understanding of it's spiritual nature or the cultural context that a particular keris may have within it's own particular Indonesian society. In other words, we Westerners have a tendency to like something for it's surface appearence, because it is "just another pretty face" without getting to know the deeper truth behind the "face". Now this isn't true of all Westerners either, it is merely a generalization. I don't, for instance, believe it is true for myself. I own many keris that certainly wouldn't win any "beauty contests" in the Western mind set, but they definitely have a kind of character to them that make them very valuable to me. But as a general rule of thumb i would agree that most Westerner collectors look for a keris that will "wow!" them visual first without taking into account concepts of social prestige and spiritual power.

A. G. Maisey · 5th July 2007, 04:23 AM

Rather than get involved in a discussion where no matter what I say, I will be damned for discrimination against somebody, I'll tell you a story.

In days past when we still had gunshows in Sydney, I used to take a table at those shows and try to sell keris, eastern edged weapons, and all sorts of other little bits and pieces. The keris were the centrepiece, and I'd put up a good mix of old and new, low price, high price, rare and common.

I'd present them so that the blade as well as the dress could be seen.

I would always include one or two very good, very expensive old Javanese keris.

Prices were never shown, anybody wishing to buy any keris needed to engage me in conversation.

During more than twenty years of going along to these shows with my bag of keris I never sold one good, old, Javanese keris. Not one.

In fact, during all that time not a single potential buyer was sufficiently attracted to the good, old Javanese keris that I had on offer to even pick one up and enquire the price.

I sold a lot of current era Madura keris with brilliant pattern welded pamor blades.

I sold a lot of keris that had very high visual impact.

I sold a lot of keris that really packed an artistic punch.

I did not sell, or even get one enquiry about the very good quality, old Javanese keris that were on the table.

Western collectors in general, have an entirely different set of standards and requirements to the standards and requirements of Javanese collectors. I am in the very fortunate position where I understand both sets of standards. I can understand the Javanese point of view --- yes Pak Ganja, both Solo and Jogjakarta, as well as East Jawa and Jakarta --- and I also understand the point of view of the bulk of western collectors. I do not regard one set of standards as inferior or superior. Each set of standards is a reflection of the society in which each group of collectors lives. Similarly, I do not regard one society or culture as inferior or superior:- I regard both as equals, and both as flawed in some aspects.

David · 5th July 2007, 01:57 PM

Thanks Alan for clarifying your position even further. I am sure that nothing more needs to be said in this regard and would like to see the discussion back on track, so if anyone needs Alan to clarify his postion even further i suggest that it be done in PMs, not on the open boards.

kai · 5th July 2007, 08:44 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

During more than twenty years of going along to these shows with my bag of keris I never sold one good, old, Javanese keris. Not one.

What would have been the lower end range of keris you consider good & old?

Quote:

In fact, during all that time not a single potential buyer was sufficiently attracted to the good, old Javanese keris that I had on offer to even pick one up and enquire the price.

I have to admit that this surprised me. It's a safe guess that many beginning collectors are tempted by the more gaudy pieces but not a single collector experienced with old keris in 20 years? Amazing...

Regards,
Kai

ganjawulung · 7th July 2007, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Ganja, i am sorry that you get this impression from Alan's words, but i hardly think that was his intention. Rather than implying that the Westerner's view is more "prefect" it implies to me just the opposite, the tendency of the Westerner to be drawn to a keris merely for it's visual appearence rather than having a better understanding of it's spiritual nature or the cultural context that a particular keris may have within it's own particular Indonesian society. In other words, we Westerners have a tendency to like something for it's surface appearence, because it is "just another pretty face" without getting to know the deeper truth behind the "face".

Dear Alan and David,
Of course, I know that was not your intention. That was just my simple question, and no hard feeling for me. I am sorry for my misunderstanding...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2007, 04:23 AM

G'day Kai,

An old blade in Jawa?

Depends who you talk to and the context of the conversation.

Can be pre Mataram, pre Mataram SA, pre PB X, pre 1980. Most usual Javanese and seriously accepted is pre Mataram, the later periods are regarded as "new" blades.My own interpretation is pre-WW II, which is probably more relevant to western collecting.

As to value, an old Tuban in old dress and mamas would not be all that pricey, no more so , really, than a decent current era blade in similar dress. But Kinom is costly enough to cause most people to proceed carefully, especially if in very good dress. Don't forget:- the value of a complete keris is the sum of its individual parts. A good Solo pendok can cost more than a pretty fair sort of blade.

Blade appraisal is based on tangguh. To be able to correctly appraise a blade, you do need a good understanding of tangguh --- as well as a lot of other things.

Kai, I'm a little uncomfortable with this talk of values. I feel that we are getting too close to the prohibition of no discussion relating to values. Possibly it may be as well to cease discussion in the open forum of value related things.

regards,

Alan.

3rd July 2007, 02:09 PM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Classics... Actually, it had been added to the Classics sticky thread on the 1st page of when you enter Keris Warung Kopi. Just a gentle reminder.

4th July 2007, 10:43 AM	#4
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Please excuse my ignorance... But what is 'prestige impact'? It sounds incredibly interesting, and, frankly, abstruse. If it's not too much trouble, or does not repeat info written elsewhere, I would like you to define it.

3rd July 2007, 01:50 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	This old thread might give you a good start and help us keep from needlessly going over old ground. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html There is also a part two to this thread. This is from the old forum from the years 2000-2004. When searching for information i would like to encourage people to search the old forum as well as this one. We have been talking about keris for quite some time around here. I dug up Pt. 2 as well: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html Between them ther are many pages of dicussion (and argument) on this topic. I highly recommend that before anyone adds to this thread that they thoroughly read through these old pages to see where we have already been.

3rd July 2007, 11:36 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	As David and Alam Shah have pointed out, there has already been a lot of ground covered on this subject. I haven't read the posts about this subject for years, but my memory of it is that it went in interminable circles. I don't think there was ever a lot of good, solid down to earth useable info came out of all those thousands---maybe hundreds of thousands---of words.Don't misunderstand me, there was a heap of info in there, but I don't think that anybody, after reading it, could use what he had learnt to go out a buy himself a "good keris". This is just about as I would expect, because appraisal of a keris is pretty much like appraisal of any other art work. The objective is to ascertain market value, but sometimes---as with any art work---market value moves in a direction that is not necessarily related to quantifiable quality. Even if one ignores the question of value, and only concentrates on the physically quantifiable aspects of the work, to use an analytical approach where we specify the characteristics that should be found in the various features of a blade , is not really all that practical, because although we could come to a decision on the quality of the craftsmanship by using such an approach, we could not assess the art component because--- as with any art work--- that appraisal is subjective, and can only be effectively carried out by somebody with appropriate training and experience. It is possible to appraise value to a limited degree by looking at components used in a complete keris, not just the blade. Gold is worth more than brass. Diamonds are worth more than rosecut rock crystal.However, no matter what materials are used, if the art factor is missing, the item is not worth as much as if the art factor were present. Then there are the differences in standards between people with a keris interest in the western world, and people with an interest in keris in Jawa. Generally speaking, the western world collectors much prefer keris with high visual impact. Generally speaking, the collectors in Jawa much prefer keris with high prestige impact.The difference in the societies dictates what is favoured in those societies. What is desireable in Jawa, may not be particularly desireable in Sydney, or New York. And vice versa. Even if we could come to agreement on some universal standard, I do not believe that even the most knowledgeable of us could pass our knowledge on to others by way of written words and internet photographs. In my opinion, what is needed is years and years and years of hands on experience. This cannot be replaced with photos and words. What would perhaps be achieveable would be to specify standards of craftsmanship.This at least would be the beginning of an understanding of what goes to make a better than average keris.

4th July 2007, 02:06 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Prestige can come from many things, but it has one common characteristic:- it raises ones profile in the target community. If one were to buy a Ferrari and use it to go to the supermarket, one has a prestige object and is using it gain prestige. On the other hand, if one were to deny oneself of worldly possessions and comfort, and work tirelessly for the betterment of humanity, one is also placing oneself in a situation where one gains prestige. The concept of "prestige" in a keris does not necessarily rest in a gold selut studded with diamonds. It can equally rest in a keris that is believed to possess extreme spiritual presence. It can even rest in the rumour of possession of a particular keris. It is unnecessary to define "which Jawa". The social mores are universal, only their expression differs, and that difference is in superficialities.

5th July 2007, 03:34 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I find that a very interesting comment, Pak Ganja. Are you able to explain in which way you find my remarks to be of a discriminatory nature? Exactly what have I written that could cause you to think I am making remarks that discriminate against Javanese people, and in favour of people from western cultures. I am certain that your answer will be fascinating.

5th July 2007, 04:23 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Rather than get involved in a discussion where no matter what I say, I will be damned for discrimination against somebody, I'll tell you a story. In days past when we still had gunshows in Sydney, I used to take a table at those shows and try to sell keris, eastern edged weapons, and all sorts of other little bits and pieces. The keris were the centrepiece, and I'd put up a good mix of old and new, low price, high price, rare and common. I'd present them so that the blade as well as the dress could be seen. I would always include one or two very good, very expensive old Javanese keris. Prices were never shown, anybody wishing to buy any keris needed to engage me in conversation. During more than twenty years of going along to these shows with my bag of keris I never sold one good, old, Javanese keris. Not one. In fact, during all that time not a single potential buyer was sufficiently attracted to the good, old Javanese keris that I had on offer to even pick one up and enquire the price. I sold a lot of current era Madura keris with brilliant pattern welded pamor blades. I sold a lot of keris that had very high visual impact. I sold a lot of keris that really packed an artistic punch. I did not sell, or even get one enquiry about the very good quality, old Javanese keris that were on the table. Western collectors in general, have an entirely different set of standards and requirements to the standards and requirements of Javanese collectors. I am in the very fortunate position where I understand both sets of standards. I can understand the Javanese point of view --- yes Pak Ganja, both Solo and Jogjakarta, as well as East Jawa and Jakarta --- and I also understand the point of view of the bulk of western collectors. I do not regard one set of standards as inferior or superior. Each set of standards is a reflection of the society in which each group of collectors lives. Similarly, I do not regard one society or culture as inferior or superior:- I regard both as equals, and both as flawed in some aspects.

5th July 2007, 01:57 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Thanks Alan for clarifying your position even further. I am sure that nothing more needs to be said in this regard and would like to see the discussion back on track, so if anyone needs Alan to clarify his postion even further i suggest that it be done in PMs, not on the open boards.

9th July 2007, 04:23 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	G'day Kai, An old blade in Jawa? Depends who you talk to and the context of the conversation. Can be pre Mataram, pre Mataram SA, pre PB X, pre 1980. Most usual Javanese and seriously accepted is pre Mataram, the later periods are regarded as "new" blades.My own interpretation is pre-WW II, which is probably more relevant to western collecting. As to value, an old Tuban in old dress and mamas would not be all that pricey, no more so , really, than a decent current era blade in similar dress. But Kinom is costly enough to cause most people to proceed carefully, especially if in very good dress. Don't forget:- the value of a complete keris is the sum of its individual parts. A good Solo pendok can cost more than a pretty fair sort of blade. Blade appraisal is based on tangguh. To be able to correctly appraise a blade, you do need a good understanding of tangguh --- as well as a lot of other things. Kai, I'm a little uncomfortable with this talk of values. I feel that we are getting too close to the prohibition of no discussion relating to values. Possibly it may be as well to cease discussion in the open forum of value related things. regards, Alan.