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29th June 2007, 02:59 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 951
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Hi Willem as you can read it shows that dohung is not an weapon al this can be found in the books and that dohungs have only being used before 1850
is not true. I have an pedang that was taken to England in 1820 , many weapons was taken to europe in that time so if they did fight a lot with dohungs there was also taken dohungs from the battlefield never read about that. There is no evidence for it . That there is some arabic influence in Borneo is true read history books . Ben |
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29th June 2007, 11:33 PM
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#2 | |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 400
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Quote:
If you should have read the book that you bougth from me ( Schwaner ) you could clearly see on page 80 of the second part,that Schwaner give an excelent explanation about the use and History of the Dohong. Schwaner was ther between 1843-1847. here the translation of the text: " The shield and mandau are imported on a later date but now very common. In history the place of the mandau was taken by the Dohong and parang. the Dohong must have been an ancesteral weapon. It was a broad sword about one foot length, in the shape of a lance point and had a 8 inch long ,thick and round hilt, turned from ivory-so no doubt a outland creation-. from the dohong there are only a few examples left,which are kept as heirlooms from there ancestors. nowadays they are only used to spread the blood of there victims on their bodies and to cut of the navel-string of the newborn kids." So its quite clear we have here a very early evidence for the use of the dohong as well as a weapon in very early pre-mandau times, and after that being used indeed as a ritual dagger because of the heirloom status of the dagger. There are also Dohongs in the collection of Bronbeek, a collection mainly built up by stuff from the battlefield. About the arabic influence, I don't think that the arabs did their had their influence on the Dohong but the Malay. The turned wooden hilt final is an detail that is used in many Malay objects and also daggers, see " Spirit of wood,the art of malay woodcarving". Also I think that seen the large migrations in Borneo about 200 years ago, where the Kajans and Ibans where pushing from the north its good possible that the dagger (or the design) has been taken with tribes who did first live in the north put where pused to move to the south.The Dohong is mainly found among the Ngadjoe and Ot danum. The ivory hilts could also be imorted by traders from Banjarmassin. Finally, the use of the turned hilt final is a Budistic stupa symbol. sources: Schwaner -beschrijving van het stroomgebied van den Barito by C.A.L.M.Schwaner 1853 farisch A.Noor and Eddin Khoo Spirit of Wood |
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30th June 2007, 07:02 AM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 951
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Look at this part from the Museum leiden the Junboll
It says it was taken over from an other culture written by Sal Müller and in my opinion it was in use by some local dayaks but not all . the Malay did bring the arabic infulence in Borneo just read the books Schwaner was in one erea in Borneo when he wrote this and he might be writing over the bayu instead over the dohung he did not pictured it so we don t now . mandaukudi Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 49 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Ben, one ( 16-284 ) is a very early collected piece came in to the museum around 1860 but was from the journey of Salomon Muller who visited Borneo in 1836. Salomon visited the south of Borneo the aria upriver Barito from Banjarmassin. In his book there's one time that he mentioned " we bought some chickens and other food,some mats,weaponery and jewellery" in the village Lontontoer.So its possible that he obtained this Bayu there. the other (781-04) I'm not for sure but the number is from just before 1900. the handle looks almost chinese and the scabbard has a " never used patina". Arjan. Arjan read what Sal Müller say s about this in Jhunboll You can t beat the facts Arjan Ben Last edited by Dajak; 30th June 2007 at 09:14 AM. |
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30th June 2007, 10:12 AM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 400
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Quote:
dear Ben, at first: You wrote your answer between the lines I have written in my answer so it looks almost if I have written it, maybe you can edit that? second: reading before you answer should provide a long and unessesary discussion. thirth: Indeed Salomon Muller says in Juynboll that the Dohong is probably taken over from another culture because he says that it maybe is from the times that "Modjapit rules about the coasts of Borneo" good possible because the blade of the Dohong looks like very old Modjapit daggers.So not Arababs did have their influence on the Dohong but the Hindu. ( however the Arabs did trade in this area) fourth: (reading before you write) was Schwaner talking about a Bayu when he used the word "Dohong" and talked about a 8 inch turned ivory round and thick hilt? Of course not! You can't beat the facts Ben!  five:I still stay with my opinion that the hilt is of malay origin, the hilts of the 18th and 19th Pattani parangs and Anak Wali's are almost of the same shape. As Borneo is a mix of diverse tribal influences also its of course possible that the dohong is also a mix creation of Hindu influence with Malay details. six: please stay reading as professional as your way of collecting,you are a marvelous collector! The treads in this forum are to help eachother with ideas,knowledge and study.But only by staying professional readers we can lift this forum to the high unique level it deserves! best regards, Arjan. |
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30th June 2007, 10:37 AM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 951
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Arjan trans late the page off schwaner in English
I said might be Arjan read please here start it mandaukudi Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 49 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Ben, one ( 16-284 ) is a very early collected piece came in to the museum around 1860 but was from the journey of Salomon Muller who visited Borneo in 1836. Salomon visited the south of Borneo the aria upriver Barito from Banjarmassin. In his book there's one time that he mentioned " we bought some chickens and other food,some mats,weaponery and jewellery" in the village Lontontoer.So its possible that he obtained this Bayu there. the other (781-04) I'm not for sure but the number is from just before 1900. the handle looks almost chinese and the scabbard has a " never used patina". Arjan. here it s end looks like you talk 2 things Arjan ben |
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30th June 2007, 01:18 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 400
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Quote:
Hi Ben, are you not exchancing Muller and Schwaner with eachother? or do you think that I exclude the bayu from beiing used as weapon? however the exact text in Schwaner says: The Dohong must be ,according to what they say have been the ancesteral weapon. included a pic of item no 16-284 taken by myself in de depot, from the very nice bayu collected by Muller. arjan. Last edited by mandaukudi; 30th June 2007 at 01:38 PM. |
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30th June 2007, 04:33 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 951
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YOUR TRANSLATION IS NOT RIGHT ABOUT WHAT SCHWANER SAYS
That is what I mean the whole time read it like it is . Muller has taken some weapons and is writing about that the dohung is not an dayak weapon tells you in Juynboll that these are story s . What weapon did Schwaner take to the museum for weapons ? Schwaner talks about the parang as an Weapon that was before the mandau this is could be true . but dohung is no proof. sometimes people wanna believe something and has nothing to do if one is an outstanding collector or not who make rules if one is an good or bad collector. Translation is that in that ....part of borneo .....the shield and mandau came in later (that part and not counting for whole Borneo) but now in that time common the dohung must be after what they tell him a weapon from there ancestors (but they don t now for sure) also tells that the dohung is from an other culture . If we believe Stone the pandat is the weapon off the seadayaks IBANS is this true because he says it . proof did bring us that it must be an land dayak weapon Ben |
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