Bosnian Bichaq

[TVV]

I do not think there was only one maker. To me it appears that this symbol was copied in a manner similar to the eyelashes marking, and was more of a stamp of quality. On these knives certain inscriptions seem to have been copied as well. For example I have a bichaq with an inscription "Sarajevo 1894", which is almost identical to one in a small book issued by Hermann-Historica called "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen KulturRaum". Note the 4th dagger from the left.
Regards,
Teodor

[Rick]

Here is my example of Bichaq and a close-up of the maker's mark.

[Lew]

Here are 3 from my collection. Two have the scimitar mark the little one is dated 1893.


Lew

[Battara]

Thank you folks. Very helpful. And thanks for the sharing for comparison. I just love green bone and ivory!

[Rick]

It seems that my example is the only one with a different mark.

All the examples shown , as far as I can tell, have a hardened edge; they are sturdy workmanlike knives.

[TVV]

I hope nobody would mind me renewing this thread wih new examples - my goal is to keep as much of the information in one thread for later reference purposes.
Here is a somewhat more unusual variation of this type of knives. Not as unusual as Rick's, but still different. It is similar to #11 from Hermann-Historica's catalogue, which is described there as a Bosnian dagger with lacquer filled drilled holes decoration and a more pronounced head (pommel?), with a simple scabbard (not pictured). Mine is without scabbard, but it would have probably been similar to the usual construction of two wooden halves encased in thin brass sheet.
Below I have it next to my other three bichaqs, and I have also tried to take comparison photos of the hilts. Finally, there are photos of all the markings - one is unmarked, two have the so-called "kilidj/shamshir" marking and the new one has a marking which I cannot name, since I am not really sure what it aims to represent.
I wonder, has there been a study of these interesting knives, which might give us some insight as to the meaning of the different marks and the decoration on the hilts. I agree with Jim that the circles and dots are most likely solar symbols, but would always love to learn more.
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Very nice work on the scabbard Jose ! and this is a remarkable example, especially as you note the green dyed horn grip is most unusual. It seems I had heard in discussion once the suggestion that the green, a very sacred color in Islam, was intended to signify the Hajii, or Pilgrimage to Mecca. I wonder if this might be the case, and would be interested to hear more on this suggestion. It seems that obviously the green coloring has been seen on a number of horn gripped Islamic weapons of various forms.

Another feature that seems prevalent on Bosnian edged weapons are the raised studded screws, and these appear also on some Balkan yataghans. I have often wondered the purpose of this feature, and if some particular reason for it.

Most interesting comments on the shamshir marking, another example of a key weapon form appearing on a blade as a makers mark or other meaning. On other threads we have noted some tulwar blades stamped with a katar, another dagger blade with what appears to suggest a madu. I'd like to know if there is more detail on this marking as well.

Teodor, thank you for the note on the circle marking, and there is much more research on these and so many other markings. I am always happy to see any interest in markings and symbolism in weapons as you know!!

Great thread on these interesting knives!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

I wonder, has there been a study of these interesting knives, which might give us some insight as to the meaning of the different marks and the decoration on the hilts. I agree with Jim that the circles and dots are most likely solar symbols, but would always love to learn more.
Teodor

Jim is wrong I am afraid to say and apologies as I overlooked this and never addressed this before.

Solar symbols would be heretical as first of all most of the makers were Muslims. Imagine using solar symbols in inquisitional Spain... the maker would end up on a pyre. Best to check the context of the folks living at that time...

Being Muslim it was haram ( forbidden) to portray men hence they turned to mathematic symbols. Which resulted in most beautiful art as one still can see from Samarkand to Fez in architecture but also furniture, woven blankets, carpets, tiles, etc. Hence as well as decoration for weapons.


But they went also for their own roots: in the Middle Ages before the arrival of the Ottomans, Bosnia had their own church ( seperate from the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church). This Bosnian Church : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Church
had and still has their tombstones all over the country.

The enclosed example is one of them and if you take out on leg of the cross, you have the circle with the symbol you often see as decoration on many of the better bichaqs.
As for the "cheaper" ones or the ones needed to be produced quickly... a dot in the circle would do. The same one can see in present day Baščaršija ( old market in Sarajevo's old ancient town center) People used and still do use just examples they had & have around them ( and Bosnia & Hercegovina is full of them)

[Rick]

I have seen so far not another mark like this one.

[Battara]

Ooooo............that's interesting!

[gp]

some further info on the Bosnian Bichaqs:

The handles are bone with ornamental inlay work of bronze and glazed ceramic. The graceful blades are single edge, mostly powerful 5 mm (3/16 ”) thick at the spine, - stout and sturdy carbon steel blade with an upswept needle-pointed tip with file work to the thick sphave one.

They have generally a tapered full tang - tapering the tang gives the knife a balance that can't be achieved any other way. Tapering the tang gets rid of unnecessary weight that you don't need. It also is considered the sign of a seasoned knifemaker; tapered tangs are associated with hand-forged blades.
Some do One side of the blade display a motif of "Kilij" (Turkish saber)

Ref.: "Islamic Weapons. Maghrib to Moghul" , by Anthony C. Tirri, p. 168

Added a picture of an ( rare ) example without the circular ornamental inlays

[gp]

Originally Posted by Rick

I have seen so far not another mark like this one.

I have seen a similar knife around but in a much better version or at least the decent standard Bosnian version with the kilij mark.
Please compare the handle / grip.

I can not recall exactly where but your mark rings a bell as I have seen it around before... could be as a Turkish or rather Ottoman one.
Could be that a local craftsman copied the Bosnian one and marked it with the Turkish / Ottoman cresent...

[gp]

just bought a bichaq at an auction with this description:

"Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger Knife with Carved Horn Grip & Silver Mounts. Total Length (inside scabbard if present) : 10 1/2" Blade Length : 5 1/4"

Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878.
My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw.
Now I shall have to wait until it arrives and clean it

[Battara]

Very nice! Unusual to have a hanger assembly on the back of the scabbard. Very nice workmanship on the front and throat of the scabbard.

[gp]

Originally Posted by gp

just bought a bichaq at an auction with this description:

"Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger Knife with Carved Horn Grip & Silver Mounts. Total Length (inside scabbard if present) : 10 1/2" Blade Length : 5 1/4"

Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878.
My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw.
Now I shall have to wait until it arrives and clean it

warning :

I bought it from Sofe Design Auctions, LLC in Richardson, TX, United States yesterday.
Price $ 175 + 25 %
whilst the estimate was $300 - $500.
no minimum price.....so lucky me.....

Not so

as it just got cancelled and I received an email:

Please be advised that the seller has requested your permission to remove the following item:
Lot 406, Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger
which you've won during Fall Antique Arms & Art, Nov. 7th, 2020 on Nov 07, 2020.


Reason for removal - clerking error.

Never in 30 years auction experience I met this...after 1 month a clerking error took place... just like the dagger was Asian....
So much for integrity...for an item that was weeks on their books and internet
Well s-beep- happens, so I'll sing an old Lizzy song


I am just a cowboy, lonesome on the trail
A starry night, a campfire light
The coyote call and the howling wind wail
So I ride out to the old sundown

Stay healthy you all !

[David R]

This is not on. Someone did not get their hoped for price and so reneged on the deal, Shame.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by gp

... Please be advised that the seller has requested your permission to remove the following item:
Lot 406, Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger
which you've won during Fall Antique Arms & Art, Nov. 7th, 2020 on Nov 07, 2020.
Reason for removal - clerking error. ...

This statement from the auction house is critical. You are being asked for permission to cancel the sale. As I read this, you can say "No" and the sale should be transacted properly. Also, you are not being told what the "clerking error" was and who made that error. If it was the seller, then that's his bad luck! If it was the auction house, then the seller might have some recourse in getting compensation from the auction house. You should not be denied a legal transaction because somebody else made an error.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by gp

Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878.
My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw.

This is the only scabbard with a hanging ring. Or I'm wrong?

[gp]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

This is the only scabbard with a hanging ring. Or I'm wrong?

No, you're not (completely) wrong...as there is a little more than meets the eye to it.
Cold weapons used in the Ottoman Balkans, moreover Bosnia, Albania and Greece would not have a hanging ring as they would be carried in traditional scarf, wrapped around a man's waist, which functions as a belt.

The one you are refering to is more a "show" piece of a rich merchant or an aristocratic of a lower rank, or a lady's dagger (as can be found in Serbia between 1860-1900).
Serbia were from approx. 1862 pan-Slavism turned their eye more to the west than the Ottoman east.
Hence influence and contact in these border erea's with Austria, Hungaria and their Slav brethren ( Russia and others like the sokol movements ) would cause the introduction of other practical ideas and fashion as f.i. some of these rings.