The earliest sabers

Jens Nordlunde · 27th June 2007, 01:33 PM

Thank you for showing this rare blade. This made me remember another rare blade I have seen in Persian Steel by J. Allan and B. Gilmour, page 55. It is a slightly curved, single edged blade, 71.5 cm long, found in 9th century archaeological levels at Nishapur. Now at the MET. Here is a map – click to make it bigger http://www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/HD/nish/hd_nish.htm

At an excavation at Merv, where Ann Feuerbach participated, they excavated ingots, although they did not have any iron, it had to be imported, but Merv had at least two big plusses, it had a key position on the Silk Road, and it was an Arabian headquarters at the time. Have a look at the map showing some of the key towns on the Silk Road at the time, Herat, Nishapur, Merv, Bukhara and Samarqand.

HorseNomad · 27th June 2007, 06:26 PM

Greetings Members,

I am new to the Forum but have been a student of early sabres for many years.
These blades have been found over a very large geographical area. I would say from the Danube to the Kirghiz region. If the blade in the photo has some hilt elements it will be possible to say more about dating and place of origin.
The collar at the blade base was probably there to keep the blade tight in the scabbard like a habaki on a Japanese blade. They appear on Chinese sabres also. It could be for resting the index finger but the weight of these blades, usually very heavy, doesn't imply that.
If anyone wants to see other types of steppe swords let me know, I can try to put up some photos.

Tim

ham · 27th June 2007, 10:09 PM

Welcome to the Forum, Tim.

I, for one, would be interested in knowing more about early sabres, please do post some photos with descriptions.

Ham

TVV · 28th June 2007, 04:19 AM

Hello Tim,

I am glad you joined us, as I have always wanted to learn more about early sabres, because they are the weapon that has always fascinated me the most. No irony intended, I am serious. I like your suggestion that sabres should be classified according to hilt and blade characteristics, rather than the surrounding objects in the burial, because this latter approach does not take into account heirloom blades, that survived for centuries and trophies, which could have been taken from neighboring peoples.
The picture I have attached is from Varna's Archaeological Museum and the display features sabres and palashes found in nowadays North-Eastern Bulgaria. They are dated VIII-X centuries, which was South-Eastern Bulgaria back then, if the dating is correct. What would your comments on them be, with regards to dating, origin, etc.?
Thanks,
Teodor

HorseNomad · 28th June 2007, 07:36 PM

Hello Teodor,

OK, let's see-- well, the first on the left is about right for 8 or 9 century, but not exclusively Bulgar. Second one can't say because of the flash. 3rd one crossguard and blade both look Bulgar 10 century give or take 100 yrs, 4th one is definitely later, probably 13 century and kind of an international form from the Caspian all the way to the Balkans. The last sword is definitely Golden Horde so 13-14 century.
The thing with these ancient sabres is condition. I personally avoid the really corroded or incomplete ones. If there's enough material intact to show details like the form of the guard and the cross-x of the blade, you can pretty well date them but that's kind of rare. And if you find ones that still have the pommel, that's just plain luck.

Tim

Lee · 29th June 2007, 01:27 AM

Here is a link to the very first forum topic on this site, done even before forums software (we are now on the 3rd system)...

Sword From Siberia

TVV · 29th June 2007, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HorseNomad

Hello Teodor,

OK, let's see-- well, the first on the left is about right for 8 or 9 century, but not exclusively Bulgar. Second one can't say because of the flash. 3rd one crossguard and blade both look Bulgar 10 century give or take 100 yrs, 4th one is definitely later, probably 13 century and kind of an international form from the Caspian all the way to the Balkans. The last sword is definitely Golden Horde so 13-14 century.
The thing with these ancient sabres is condition. I personally avoid the really corroded or incomplete ones. If there's enough material intact to show details like the form of the guard and the cross-x of the blade, you can pretty well date them but that's kind of rare. And if you find ones that still have the pommel, that's just plain luck.

Tim

Thanks Tim,

I appreciate your comments. According to an archaeologist, who published a catalogue of finds from the VII-Xth centuries in the territory of nowadays Bulgaria, the first three are palashes and the 2nd and 3rd he claims belong to a group associated with Bulgars and Khazars. The 4th one, he claims is Magyar, as it is similar to finds associated with the Magyars. I have to admit, to me it looks similar to the well known Charlemagne sabre, which is considered Magyar. For the last sword, I completely agree that it looks like a Golden Horde one.
I will try to post pictures of more finds from nowadays Bulgaria over the weekend. I am also looking forward to seeing as many other examples in this thread, because as I wrote, these early medieval sabres are my favorites, even if I know too little about them.
Teodor

Dr. Lee's example strikes me as amazingly well preserved.

Jim McDougall · 29th June 2007, 02:51 PM

Thank you Lee for posting the 'Siberian sabre' which is exactly the one I was referring to!!!!

What a great sword ... there were some excellent discussions back in those early days (seems so long ago!) and we've come a long way.

While there has ever been various levels of discussion and research on the development of the sabre, the theories remain of course inconclusive and some interesting ideas have been presented over the years.

I agree with Ham, I would like to see more on early sabres, such as those posted by Teodor!

I have always been under the impression that the curved sabre developed progressively from the standard straight swords as the dynamics of the slashing cut from horseback was better served by such the curving edge.It would be interesting to know of such 'proto-sabres' actually existed, possibly the idea began in the fashion of blade sharpening of straight swords on the earliest . It seems generally held that the sabre probably evolved with the movement of nomadic tribes westward from China, possibly in Turkistan.

It would be interesting to have this better explained

and know more on the probable course of development of the curved sabre, and to see some examples (such as this excellent blade posted by Oriental Arms).

All best regards,
Jim

28th June 2007, 04:19 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Hello Tim, I am glad you joined us, as I have always wanted to learn more about early sabres, because they are the weapon that has always fascinated me the most. No irony intended, I am serious. I like your suggestion that sabres should be classified according to hilt and blade characteristics, rather than the surrounding objects in the burial, because this latter approach does not take into account heirloom blades, that survived for centuries and trophies, which could have been taken from neighboring peoples. The picture I have attached is from Varna's Archaeological Museum and the display features sabres and palashes found in nowadays North-Eastern Bulgaria. They are dated VIII-X centuries, which was South-Eastern Bulgaria back then, if the dating is correct. What would your comments on them be, with regards to dating, origin, etc.? Thanks, Teodor Attached Images

29th June 2007, 01:27 AM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	The Old Sword From Siberia Thread Here is a link to the very first forum topic on this site, done even before forums software (we are now on the 3rd system)... Sword From Siberia

27th June 2007, 01:33 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for showing this rare blade. This made me remember another rare blade I have seen in Persian Steel by J. Allan and B. Gilmour, page 55. It is a slightly curved, single edged blade, 71.5 cm long, found in 9th century archaeological levels at Nishapur. Now at the MET. Here is a map – click to make it bigger http://www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/HD/nish/hd_nish.htm At an excavation at Merv, where Ann Feuerbach participated, they excavated ingots, although they did not have any iron, it had to be imported, but Merv had at least two big plusses, it had a key position on the Silk Road, and it was an Arabian headquarters at the time. Have a look at the map showing some of the key towns on the Silk Road at the time, Herat, Nishapur, Merv, Bukhara and Samarqand.

27th June 2007, 06:26 PM	#2
HorseNomad Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: D.C. area Posts: 8	Greetings Members, I am new to the Forum but have been a student of early sabres for many years. These blades have been found over a very large geographical area. I would say from the Danube to the Kirghiz region. If the blade in the photo has some hilt elements it will be possible to say more about dating and place of origin. The collar at the blade base was probably there to keep the blade tight in the scabbard like a habaki on a Japanese blade. They appear on Chinese sabres also. It could be for resting the index finger but the weight of these blades, usually very heavy, doesn't imply that. If anyone wants to see other types of steppe swords let me know, I can try to put up some photos. Tim

27th June 2007, 10:09 PM	#3
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Welcome to the Forum, Tim. I, for one, would be interested in knowing more about early sabres, please do post some photos with descriptions. Ham

28th June 2007, 07:36 PM	#5
HorseNomad Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: D.C. area Posts: 8	Hello Teodor, OK, let's see-- well, the first on the left is about right for 8 or 9 century, but not exclusively Bulgar. Second one can't say because of the flash. 3rd one crossguard and blade both look Bulgar 10 century give or take 100 yrs, 4th one is definitely later, probably 13 century and kind of an international form from the Caspian all the way to the Balkans. The last sword is definitely Golden Horde so 13-14 century. The thing with these ancient sabres is condition. I personally avoid the really corroded or incomplete ones. If there's enough material intact to show details like the form of the guard and the cross-x of the blade, you can pretty well date them but that's kind of rare. And if you find ones that still have the pommel, that's just plain luck. Tim

29th June 2007, 02:51 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Thank you Lee for posting the 'Siberian sabre' which is exactly the one I was referring to!!!! What a great sword ... there were some excellent discussions back in those early days (seems so long ago!) and we've come a long way. While there has ever been various levels of discussion and research on the development of the sabre, the theories remain of course inconclusive and some interesting ideas have been presented over the years. I agree with Ham, I would like to see more on early sabres, such as those posted by Teodor! I have always been under the impression that the curved sabre developed progressively from the standard straight swords as the dynamics of the slashing cut from horseback was better served by such the curving edge.It would be interesting to know of such 'proto-sabres' actually existed, possibly the idea began in the fashion of blade sharpening of straight swords on the earliest . It seems generally held that the sabre probably evolved with the movement of nomadic tribes westward from China, possibly in Turkistan. It would be interesting to have this better explained and know more on the probable course of development of the curved sabre, and to see some examples (such as this excellent blade posted by Oriental Arms). All best regards, Jim