Circassian Weaponry

janti · 25th June 2007, 02:27 PM

Dear Ariel ,

''Yataghan still an Ottoman weapon'' ,''Shamshir'' ect.

You see they named by orginal names. When you say yataghan everone knows its a Ottoman weapon. So this names belong to original languages why qama is named kindjal ?

Why every one calls to yoghurt to yoghurt. You can make it even in your home, so why we are not calling to yoghurt salted stiff milk ?

Or Arabs named Leben so why we are not using this name ?

''It is so nice to deal with Koras... Wait, which one is Tibetan and which one is Nepalese? ''
Kora is original name and you see what we are calling to them Senegalies kora ,Tibetan kora ,Nepalese kora ,ect.

If we are not using original name ( qama ) ,Isnt that better calling to Circassian kindjal ( qama ) made in Georgia or Balkan , or qama made in Georgia ,Balkan , Trabzon, ect.

Why i am sensitive on this seccuation is , just thinking after 100 years everyone goingto call kindjal, Balkan kindjal ,Georgian kindjal ect. But specially Georgian kindjal cause Georgians are Caucassian native .It will be, act unjustly to history.And this kind of mistakes helps to assimilation Circassian traditional cultur.

By that way, are we going to let assimilation of Native culturs ?

Kiziria · 10th June 2008, 10:44 PM

It seems to late to join into this discussion. But just incase Janti would come back, I want to say a few words about origin of caucasian daggers.
Dear Janti it is clear that you are patriot of your people and Circassian culture. It is very good. But you should study archeology and ethnography of caucasus and transcaucasia. I would advise you to find and read works on so called Coban or Koban archeological culture, Kolchian culture, Culture of Kura-Arax region. The point is that you will see that shapes of bronze blades dated thousands years before our time, are of similar and same shape as those carried by our grandfathers. And it is through all the caucasus.
Impossible to say who was the first to create them. No scientist or serious researcher would claim origin in Cirassia, or Kolchis or Iberia, or Armenia. But fact is those daggers were in use for thousands of years. Beside you should know that beside word "qama" , there are other words that mean certain type of dagger and their are certainly not of Circassia origin, for example georgian "satevari" , which is much older word and was used in medieval poetry and legends. Qama is foreign word for Georgians and appears in Georgia only in 18 century. It came with north caucasian weapon smiths that came to work in Tbilisi,capital of Georgia. Other people of Caucasus also have native names for dagger. I can speak for them as well if necessary.
Another fact I want to point out is that daggers in different Caucasian region has slight but important differences in shape, length and width. For example. Purely Eastern Georgian daggers are shorter,stronger and more rounded, that makes them more cutting and chopping than trusting weapon. And that reflects on style of fencing with daggers. Dear Janty world of caucasian weaponry is huge and open for studies.Trust me it is not as simple as you might imagine. Daggers were evolving in Caucasian regions and though might appear similar to untrained eye , are in fact have distinctions that could place each dagger's "origin" into Circassia, Georgia or Daghestan and so on.
My request is that before making claims about origin of caucasian dagger, please study some historic materials, approach this seriously please as it is very serious and sensitive topic for all Caucasian nations.

ariel · 11th June 2008, 02:07 AM

Interestingly, Elgood, in his monumental book on Indian arms mentions the sword called Chircas and defines it as a Circassian sword used by Uzbeks.
Was it a pra-ancestor of the Bukharan swords or Afghani shashkas?
Even more interesting, did Circassians serve in the Turkic military from the ancient Uzbekistan ( or what was then viewed as the land of Uzbeks), an ancient enemy of Persia?

25th June 2007, 02:27 PM	#1
janti Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 8	Dear Ariel , ''Yataghan still an Ottoman weapon'' ,''Shamshir'' ect. You see they named by orginal names. When you say yataghan everone knows its a Ottoman weapon. So this names belong to original languages why qama is named kindjal ? Why every one calls to yoghurt to yoghurt. You can make it even in your home, so why we are not calling to yoghurt salted stiff milk ? Or Arabs named Leben so why we are not using this name ? ''It is so nice to deal with Koras... Wait, which one is Tibetan and which one is Nepalese? '' Kora is original name and you see what we are calling to them Senegalies kora ,Tibetan kora ,Nepalese kora ,ect. If we are not using original name ( qama ) ,Isnt that better calling to Circassian kindjal ( qama ) made in Georgia or Balkan , or qama made in Georgia ,Balkan , Trabzon, ect. Why i am sensitive on this seccuation is , just thinking after 100 years everyone goingto call kindjal, Balkan kindjal ,Georgian kindjal ect. But specially Georgian kindjal cause Georgians are Caucassian native .It will be, act unjustly to history.And this kind of mistakes helps to assimilation Circassian traditional cultur. By that way, are we going to let assimilation of Native culturs ?

10th June 2008, 10:44 PM	#2
Kiziria Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 26	It seems to late to join into this discussion. But just incase Janti would come back, I want to say a few words about origin of caucasian daggers. Dear Janti it is clear that you are patriot of your people and Circassian culture. It is very good. But you should study archeology and ethnography of caucasus and transcaucasia. I would advise you to find and read works on so called Coban or Koban archeological culture, Kolchian culture, Culture of Kura-Arax region. The point is that you will see that shapes of bronze blades dated thousands years before our time, are of similar and same shape as those carried by our grandfathers. And it is through all the caucasus. Impossible to say who was the first to create them. No scientist or serious researcher would claim origin in Cirassia, or Kolchis or Iberia, or Armenia. But fact is those daggers were in use for thousands of years. Beside you should know that beside word "qama" , there are other words that mean certain type of dagger and their are certainly not of Circassia origin, for example georgian "satevari" , which is much older word and was used in medieval poetry and legends. Qama is foreign word for Georgians and appears in Georgia only in 18 century. It came with north caucasian weapon smiths that came to work in Tbilisi,capital of Georgia. Other people of Caucasus also have native names for dagger. I can speak for them as well if necessary. Another fact I want to point out is that daggers in different Caucasian region has slight but important differences in shape, length and width. For example. Purely Eastern Georgian daggers are shorter,stronger and more rounded, that makes them more cutting and chopping than trusting weapon. And that reflects on style of fencing with daggers. Dear Janty world of caucasian weaponry is huge and open for studies.Trust me it is not as simple as you might imagine. Daggers were evolving in Caucasian regions and though might appear similar to untrained eye , are in fact have distinctions that could place each dagger's "origin" into Circassia, Georgia or Daghestan and so on. My request is that before making claims about origin of caucasian dagger, please study some historic materials, approach this seriously please as it is very serious and sensitive topic for all Caucasian nations.

11th June 2008, 02:07 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interestingly, Elgood, in his monumental book on Indian arms mentions the sword called Chircas and defines it as a Circassian sword used by Uzbeks. Was it a pra-ancestor of the Bukharan swords or Afghani shashkas? Even more interesting, did Circassians serve in the Turkic military from the ancient Uzbekistan ( or what was then viewed as the land of Uzbeks), an ancient enemy of Persia?